Dany or Mirri? Which one was in the Right?

[SeanF]

Now, I fully believe Dany was trying to do good. But I can fully see how the horrible shit the Dotharaki did to their village isn't suddenly forgiven by what little she did (regardless of whether or not she did everything she could). And if MMD discovered why Drogo attacked her village, then Dany would lose any claims of innocence in the matter. We can argue whether or not Dany is responsible because she never actually seen a Dotharaki raid before. But MMD isn't going to be reasonable. She's going to blame everyone who had a part in it, and Dany had a very large part in it even if it can be argued from an objective viewpoint that her ignorance makes her less responsible.

Given where she's coming from, there's very little reason for Mirri to be sympathetic to Dany.

[Beorn Snow]

Whichever gives us the POV is in the right.

[James Arryn]

I always saw MMD's argument as less about revenge, more about prevention. If the prediction is accurate, what she knows is that what was visited on her and her people WILL be visited on countless others in time. It's actually an illustration of the classic ethics question: if you could go back in time, would it be morally right to kill innocent child Hitler?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I get Mirri's anger. By story standards she deserves to attempt her revenge. Yet blaming Dany by killing her child won't save anybody any problems. Dany's child was supposed to unite the Khals, it stands to reason he would have stopped the constant warring amongst tribes he could have actually decreased the violence. Her decision may have felt good but it probably only made things worse. It surely ensured the Dothraki got more of the same. Say what you will about what she did, it was brave sure, but it was also stupid. If she really wanted to HELP PROTECT the world from his future terror she'd have simply stuck around and played a part in his life, teaching him compassion and a sense of justice. But she ignores that, killing him was much easier and felt better. She deserved her revenge but by going after it she yielded the moral high ground. In the end she was just as bad as what she hated. Calling her a hero is a stretch.

[James Arryn]

. Dany's child was supposed to unite the Khals, it stands to reason he would have stopped the constant warring amongst tribes he could have actually decreased the violence. Her decision may have felt good but it probably only made things worse.

I don't get this at all. I think she...and the rest of the world there...were less concerned about the violence Dothraki visited upon each other than the constant death and/or slavery they visited upon everyone else. And this one was supposed to do that to the world. Not a good thing.

[Winter's Knight]

I like this argument.

Here is disproportionate malice:

BLONDE GIRL: I have saved you from rape!

WOMAN OF COLOR: You seem like a nice girl, though maybe a little naive and trusting. Do you mind if I brutally exploit that trust in order to poison your husband, trick you into an unwanted abortion, and strip away everything that is keeping you safe in this world?

BLONDE GIRL: Won't that make the WARRIOR MEN retroactively right for saying you are evil and not to be trusted, which was initially chalked up in the viewer's mind as racism and sexism because the WARRIOR MEN are demonstrably racist and sexist?

WOMAN OF COLOR: Yes! But it's okay because after I use your trust to tear away everything you hold dear, I will point at you and cackle and laugh about how now you hurt as much as I do, lulz.

BLONDE GIRL: Okay!

Contrast that with somewhat more proportionate malice:

BLONDE GIRL: I have saved you from rape!

WOMAN OF COLOR: Look, I appreciate that, really I do, but the fact of the matter is that this situation is larger than the two of us. You've been sold as a wife to the clan chief, and I realize that you're trying to make the best of this situation, but despite your personal feelings in the matter I'm going to have to kill him for the sake of the larger good.

BLONDE GIRL: Are you going to brutally abuse my trust and mock my sorrow while you do it?

WOMAN OF COLOR: No, this isn't personal and I'm not doing this to be cruel. If you're willing to accept my help, I'll even try to help you escape back to White People Land once all this starts falling down around us, because you did save my life just now and I don't mind trying to return the favor. But I've still got to do what I think is right.

BLONDE GIRL: Okay!

Is there a difference there? I think there is. For me, there's a big difference between "look, I appreciate this, but..." and "hahahaha, stupid girl, now I keel your happy! [insert mustache twirl]" and that difference is between a morally ambiguous Real Person faced with a barrel full of difficult choices and a cardboard cut-out evil villain who hurts for the joy of hurting.

And you know what? I think that despite how problematic this setup is to me, I think the author was probably trying to FIX things with this. I think that somewhere in the writing process someone pointed out that it's a damn shame that minorities in these books frequently turn around and reward white people with abject gratitude for things that comprise basic decency: not letting them be killed, for example, or saving them from rape. I think the intent with this scene was to show that being saved from rape doesn't mean that you're going to magically stop being pissed off about the brutal sacking of your home village.

But then somewhere after that meaningful insight, everything went horribly overboard and we ended up with a WOMAN OF COLOR exploiting a sweet BLONDE GIRL and laughing maniacally as the tears rolled down her pretty white face. Whooops.

[SeanF]

I like this argument.

I think it's more likely that someone in Mirri's position would hit back in any way she could, rather than worrying whether her revenge was disproportionate.

In fact, I think it would have been absurd to write the book in such a way that Mirri actually tries to help Dany return home. Mirri is furious, grief-stricken, despairing, and vengeful, which is what we would expect from someone in her position.

So, I'm not convinced by the argument.

[Martin Lasarte]

If Dany is the Stallion, then killing Rhaego was not only cruel and useless, but even harmful, since his death is what helped Dany become a conqueror.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Mirri was righteous. Dany could have have uttered these words while she trembled in relief," If it's not my life you want, then who's life will be taken to pay for Drogo's?" but she didn't ask because she simply did NOT care. Instead, the words she uttered were" Do it".

Dany gave her an open invitation to kill anyone in the world, and Mirri chose the person she thought would hurt her people the most.

Want to hear some irony? If any of you watch the TV show " Once Upon A Time", this very theme came up two weeks ago. Snow White was @ 8 years old and was offered the same deal as Dany. She could save her mother's life if she lit a magic candle and uttered another person's name. Their life would be taken and her mother's life would be restored. Snow White refused to name another person because she knew it was morally wrong. I immediately wondered if the writers for that show watched the Game of Thrones show!

[Winter's Knight]

And yet, when I try to think of what I would choose if I were fourteen, pregnant and alone, and the one person who could keep me from being raped and murdered lay dying and Mirri offered me the same choice,I have to admit that I'd take it as quickly as Dany did. Drogo's death was literally a life-or-death situation for her at that point-and not just for her but her unborn child as well.

[Table8]

If GRRM had chapters titled "Mirri" instead of "Danerys", there would be no conflict for readers, we would just be left with a bittersweet ending, where the hero, Mirri, dies a torturous death, but not before exacting her revenge on the brutal barbarian leader and trophy wife.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

If Dany is the Stallion, then killing Rhaego was not only cruel and useless, but even harmful, since his death is what helped Dany become a conqueror.

Right! Best case scenario she did nothing, sure Drogo and the baby are dead but did that SAVE anyone? No, at best she gets herself killed, at worst she creates her own cycle of violence because the men with no Khal who are tired of following will become one themselves. Nothing has changed at all.

[danm_999]

What did Mirri Maaz Duur do wrong?

She told Drogo to wear the poultice to heal his wound. He did not.

She told Drogo not to drink heavily while healing. He did anyway.

She told Daenerys that Drogo should be allowed to die peacefully, and the only alternative treatment was one many considered worse than death. She wanted it anyway.

She told Daenerys that nobody should enter the tent during her shadow spell. They did anyway.

Strip away all the 'revenge' and 'justice' judgements. What did MMD do wrong? How can it possibly be argued she murdered Drogo or Rhaego when she consistently gave advice that would preclude those deaths.

[SeanF]

What did Mirri Maaz Duur do wrong?

She told Drogo to wear the poultice to heal his wound. He did not.

She told Drogo not to drink heavily while healing. He did anyway.

She told Daenerys that Drogo should be allowed to die peacefully, and the only alternative treatment was one many considered worse than death. She wanted it anyway.

She told Daenerys that nobody should enter the tent during her shadow spell. They did anyway.

Strip away all the 'revenge' and 'justice' judgements. What did MMD do wrong? How can it possibly be argued she murdered Drogo or Rhaego when she consistently gave advice that would preclude those deaths.

Mirri does not deny having left Drogo in a vegetative state, and having killed the child. It would have been open for her to make the arguments that you make, but instead, her argument is (a) Drogo shouldn't have burned her temple and b Rhaego will burn no cities.

[danm_999]

Mirri does not deny having left Drogo in a vegetative state, and having killed the child.

Mirri says it was the Great Shephard who took Rhaego, not her. Mirri also, as I said, spells out to Daenerys, that Drogo's condition will be one that many consider worse than death.

And again, if her goal was to kill either Drogo or Rhaego, it'd be easier to simply omit pertinent information to Daenerys like "don't enter the tent". Hell, why not simply kill Daenerys while Rhaego was still inside her? You get two for one that way. If her endgame was to kill Drogo and Rhaego, she uses an absolutely baffling strategy that relies on chance, misfortune and a willfull neglect of her advice.

It would have been open for her to make the arguments that you make, but instead, her argument is (a) Drogo shouldn't have burned her temple and B) Rhaego will burn no cities.

That's not her argument for why she did what she did, that's her argument for why the Great Shephard retaliated.

[LordStoneheart]

it always has to be about race at some point... :bang:

[mattah84]

Mirri Maz Dur knew what she was doing. She intended to harm Drogo, but I think the real reason she was there was Daenarys and to try to kill her son Rhaego. Just look at the lady's resume:

Mirri was a godswife in the temple to the Great Shepherd, a Lhazar deity. Her mother had been a godswife before her and taught her all the spells and songs. As a young girl she had traveled to Asshai to learn the arts of the shadowbinders. She also studied the birthing songs of the moonsingers of the Jogos Nhai, the herb lore of the Dothraki and the medicines of Maester Marwyn.

My point being, is that just because she told Drogo that the covering she put on his wound would itch and it did, does not mean that she was not being deceitful. She could of easily poisoned the covering and told Drogo and Dany what would REALLY happen as far as itching and pain goes in order to avoid arousing their suspicions. This is just like when she told Dany that Drogo would live, but she omitted the part about how he would be in a vegetative state. You have to look at it from the point of view of this is a woman just got raped by Khal Drogo's men, and had her temple burned by Khal Drogo's men. She doesn't want to save this man.

Next, with regards to Mirri Maz Duur really being there for Daenarys, I think that she went back to Lhazarene from Westeros because she knew that Daenarys would cross through there.

MMD is a shadowbinder, and I think that Shadowbinders have some type of agenda with both Targaryens, and preventing the Azor Azai Prophecy. Everytime that we see a Shadowbinder, for the most part they have been with Targaryens. Melisandre is with Stannis (Targaryen Descendant), Quaithe visits Dany, and MMD was in Lhazarene when Dany and Drogo showed up. Perhaps shadowbinders think that Azor Azai Reborn will come from the Targaryen Blood Line. There was a woods witch who told The Mad King Aerys that Azor Azai would be from his bloodline. Anyways, what I am getting at is that MMD thought that Rhaego was going to be Azor Azai or "The Stallion who Mounts the World", but she was interpreting the prophecy wrong. MMD went after Dany's child that was in her stomach, and didn't realize that she needed to go after her Dragon Eggs instead. She killed the wrong child/children of Dany's because she didn't know that the Three Dragon Eggs would hatch. When they hatched, Dany fulfilled the prophecy of The Dragon has Three Heads, and quite possibly even Azor Azai Reborn.

Azor Azai Reborn is probably Dany's Dragons as they will be used in the war against the Others/Wight Walkers to save the worlds of Westeros, and maybe even Essos if they are connected by the Land of Always Winter. I've always felt there was a connection between R'hllor, Shadowbinders, and the Wights/Others. Right before Melisandre's shadow baby stabs Renly, he mutters the word "Cold", just like alot of POVs near the wall have done before the wights/others come. Melisandre always wanting to sacrifice people with Kings Blood, reminds me of Craster sacrificing his sons to his cruel gods. Also, there have been several descriptions where the wights/others are described as moving quick like shadows (most notably Chapter 1 in AGOT).

There is even a quote from Quaithe about how Shaowbinders drink from the cup of ice, and drink from the cup of fire.

So I think that the Shadowbinders and Wights/Others are afraid of the Targaryens and their Dragons, because their magic is not as strong as theirs, and because they feel Azor Azai Reborn will come from their bloodline. In conclusion, MMD knew what she was doing, and she was there to kill Rhaego.

[LordStoneheart]

Mirri Maz Dur knew what she was doing. She intended to harm Drogo, but I think the real reason she was there was Daenarys and to try to kill her son Rhaego. Just look at the lady's resume:

Mirri was a godswife in the temple to the Great Shepherd, a Lhazar deity. Her mother had been a godswife before her and taught her all the spells and songs. As a young girl she had traveled to Asshai to learn the arts of the shadowbinders. She also studied the birthing songs of the moonsingers of the Jogos Nhai, the herb lore of the Dothraki and the medicines of Maester Marwyn.

My point being, is that just because she told Drogo that the covering she put on his wound would itch and it did, does not mean that she was not being deceitful. She could of easily poisoned the covering and told Drogo and Dany what would REALLY happen as far as itching and pain goes in order to avoid arousing their suspicions. This is just like when she told Dany that Drogo would live, but she omitted the part about how he would be in a vegetative state. You have to look at it from the point of view of this is a woman just got raped by Khal Drogo's men, and had her temple burned by Khal Drogo's men. She doesn't want to save this man.

Next, with regards to Mirri Maz Duur really being there for Daenarys, I think that she went back to Lhazarene from Westeros because she knew that Daenarys would cross through there.

MMD is a shadowbinder, and I think that Shadowbinders have some type of agenda with both Targaryens, and preventing the Azor Azai Prophecy. Everytime that we see a Shadowbinder, for the most part they have been with Targaryens. Melisandre is with Stannis (Targaryen Descendant), Quaithe visits Dany, and MMD was in Lhazarene when Dany and Drogo showed up. Perhaps shadowbinders think that Azor Azai Reborn will come from the Targaryen Blood Line. There was a woods witch who told The Mad King Aerys that Azor Azai would be from his bloodline. Anyways, what I am getting at is that MMD thought that Rhaego was going to be Azor Azai or "The Stallion who Mounts the World", but she was interpreting the prophecy wrong. MMD went after Dany's child that was in her stomach, and didn't realize that she needed to go after her Dragon Eggs instead. She killed the wrong child/children of Dany's because she didn't know that the Three Dragon Eggs would hatch. When they hatched, Dany fulfilled the prophecy of The Dragon has Three Heads, and quite possibly even Azor Azai Reborn.

Azor Azai Reborn is probably Dany's Dragons as they will be used in the war against the Others/Wight Walkers to save the worlds of Westeros, and maybe even Essos if they are connected by the Land of Always Winter. I've always felt there was a connection between R'hllor, Shadowbinders, and the Wights/Others. Right before Melisandre's shadow baby stabs Renly, he mutters the word "Cold", just like alot of POVs near the wall have done before the wights/others come. Melisandre always wanting to sacrifice people with Kings Blood, reminds me of Craster sacrificing his sons to his cruel gods. Also, there have been several descriptions where the wights/others are described as moving quick like shadows (most notably Chapter 1 in AGOT).

There is even a quote from Quaithe about how Shaowbinders drink from the cup of ice, and drink from the cup of fire.

So I think that the Shadowbinders and Wights/Others are afraid of the Targaryens and their Dragons, because their magic is not as strong as theirs, and because they feel Azor Azai Reborn will come from their bloodline. In conclusion, MMD knew what she was doing, and she was there to kill Rhaego.

They only come out at night and are fast. I think they're only described as shadows because it's dark. Things moving in the dark tend to look dark.

[mattah84]

They only come out at night and are fast. I think they're only described as shadows because it's dark. Things moving in the dark tend to look dark.

Well besides being dark, the shadows obviously are pretty fast too. Nobody really saw Melisandre's shadow baby, until it was almost stabbing Renly and then it was to late so the shadows are fast to. Also the Wights/Others are two different things. The things that Samwell and Jon Snow killed move slow, but one of those two moves very fast just like the shadow babies, as is described in the opening prologue of AGOT.

Also I know that the Wights/Others only come out in dark, but have we seen Shadowbabies come out in light? When Renly was stabbed, it was a few hours before the sun came up.

[LordStoneheart]

I just think its very speculative to say that Melisandre's shadow assassins, quaithe, mirri, and other "shadow binder" magic from asshai is related to the Others based on a small descriptions of "fast like shadows."

If I was running through a winter forest at night, I'd pretty much just be a shadow.

I know the difference between the wights and the Others.

And Melisandre basically says the shadow assassins are related to light. "Servants of light" I think she calls them. I'd assume they could come out during the day. Actually it kind of reminds me of the Myrrdraal from the wheel of time. They can literally escape into any shadow in the day time