Official Court of Law v 11: Olenna and Margaery Tyrell

[danm_999]

Case dismissed, due to lack of credible evidence. (& it breaks my freakin' heart to do it.)

Did we ever get a verdict on Stannis?

Yup. Posts #15 and #16.

[Lion of Judah]

1.Treason

Three Counts against Queen Margaery, and Two against Lady Olenna.

1.1 The Defendants jointly supported the attainted traitor Lord Renly Baratheon in his efforts to usurp the Iron Throne.

1.2 The Defendants jointly conspired with Lord Peter Baelish to murder his Grace King Joffrey Baratheon, “the noblest lad ever to wear the Crown”, which murder was carried out by the Defendants at the Feast to celebrate the wedding of Queen Margery to the King.

1.3 Queen Margaery committed treason by committing adultery with inter alia, her brother Ser Loras Tyrell, Ser Hobar and Ser Horras Redwyne, Jalabar Xho, the Blue Bard, and Hamish the Harper , while married to his Grace, King Tommen Baratheon.

2. Murder.

One count against both Defendants.

The Defendants murdered his Grace, King Joffrey Baratheon, as detailed in charge 1.2 above.

3. Perverting the Course of Justice

The Defendants jointly, and intentionally, conspired with Lord Peter Baelish, to implicate Lord Tyrion Lannister, Master of Coin, and Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell, as being responsible for the murder of King Joffrey as aforesaid, which resulted in Lord Tyrion and Lady Sansa being wrongly attainted as traitors.

4. Obtaining Property by Deception

One Count against Lady Olenna.

Lady Olenna has routinely paid suppliers of goods and services in old gold coins that are worth half the figure that has been bargained for.

1.1 Not Guilty against Lady Olenna she cautioned against supporting Renly.

Guilty against Margery, she wanted to be queen no matter the cost.

1.2 We only have the word of a notorious liar on the matter.

Not Guilty against lady Olenna

Not Guilty against Margery

1.3 Not Guilty-We have evidence that said charges were fabricated to taint Queen Margery and weaken her grasp on young King Tommen.

2 Once again we only have the testimony of a known liar who could have done the deed himself.

Not Guilty against Lady Oleena

Not Guilty against Queen Margery

3. Ser Dontos is the one who insisted on Sansa wearing the hairnet which carried the poison that killed Joffrey. Can the court establish any direct relation or communication between Ser Dontos and the accused? Until the court doas so my verdict will be Not Guilty (subject to changed).

4. Not Guilty this is rumor sprung for the mouth of Varys, no trader that we know of has brought forth such charges against Lady Oleena.

Sentence-The extent of Margery's treason was minor, I order that she donate 500,000 gold dragons to ease the suffering in King's Landing and serve 2 years community service.

[SeanF]

I have to agree. It seems foolish to be charging them with something that Joffrey himself was ultimately okay with.

King Joffrey did indeed issue a royal pardon. But Joffrey is not the only claimant to the Iron Throne.

If a judge considers that de jure, the King of Westeros is Stannis, or the Queen of Westeros is Daenerys, then it would be open to that judge to return a verdict of Guilty.

[SeanF]

Case dismissed, due to lack of credible evidence. (& it breaks my freakin' heart to do it.)

Did we ever get a verdict on Stannis?

I think that Danm_999 has presented credible evidence in his reasoning.

[Pod The Impaler]

1.1 Not Guilty against Lady Olenna she cautioned against supporting Renly.

Guilty against Margery, she wanted to be queen no matter the cost.

1.2 We only have the word of a notorious liar on the matter.

Not Guilty against lady Olenna

Not Guilty against Margery

1.3 Not Guilty-We have evidence that said charges were fabricated to taint Queen Margery and weaken her grasp on young King Tommen.

2 Once again we only have the testimony of a known liar who could have done the deed himself.

Not Guilty against Lady Oleena

Not Guilty against Queen Margery

3. Ser Dontos is the one who insisted on Sansa wearing the hairnet which carried the poison that killed Joffrey. Can the court establish any direct relation or communication between Ser Dontos and the accused? Until the court doas so my verdict will be Not Guilty (subject to changed).

4. Not Guilty this is rumor sprung for the mouth of Varys, no trader that we know of has brought forth such charges against Lady Oleena.

Sentence-The extent of Margery's treason was minor, I order that she donate 500,000 gold dragons to ease the suffering in King's Landing and serve 2 years community service.

I guess this is the difference between what we know, and what we can prove ?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I think that Danm_999 has presented credible evidence in his reasoning.

Cersie fabricated the evidence of adultery. Littlefinger's statement can't be considered credible! & the other poster is right, Mace is ultimately responsible for is family joining Renly. Sorry, my decision stands.

[Lion of Judah]

I guess this is the difference between what we know, and what we can prove ?

What we know are the words of Littlefinger, I don't think it's enough for a conviction on several charges when you consider his credibility issues.

[Pod The Impaler]

What we know are the words of Littlefinger, I don't think it's enough for a conviction on several charges when you consider his credibility issues.

I assumed a sort of limited omniscience is going on in our exercise, as without it, there would be nothing to even point towards charges being laid at all.

[danm_999]

Littlefinger's statement can't be considered credible!

What we know are the words of Littlefinger, I don't think it's enough for a conviction on several charges when you consider his credibility issues.

I think Littlefinger is incredibly credible given the context. He has a terrible habit of spilling the beans in front of Sansa.

And if you reject the idea he comitted a pre-meditated murder with Olenna, it needs to be explained how he knew about the hairnet adjustment without any prompting, especially since Sansa came directly from the feast to him. Bottom line is, Olenna had means, motive and opportunity, and it was she who took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet - which was the cause of death - beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Minstral]

I think Littlefinger is incredibly credible given the context. He has a terrible habit of spilling the beans in front of Sansa.

And if you reject the idea he comitted a pre-meditated murder with Olenna, it needs to be explained how he knew about the hairnet adjustment without any prompting, especially since Sansa came directly from the feast to him. Bottom line is, Olenna had means, motive and opportunity, and it was she who took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet - which was the cause of death - beyond a reasonable doubt.

He made a point of trying to make sure that she did not know about his and Lysa's involvment with the death of Jon Arryn. So he does try to keep tight lipped about some things. He may have a blind spot for her, but he is not foolish in his dealing with her (on matters of secrecy, I wont say the same thing for his viewing her as Cat.20)

[Lion of Judah]

I assumed a sort of limited omniscience is going on in our exercise, as without it, there would be nothing to even point towards charges being laid at all.

Indeed we have the perspective of knowing the story and it's details during our exercise, but the narrators credibility can be questioned when the narrator is of questionable character such as Little Finger. Yes we know the details, but we know the details from his perspective and given his track record I'm not willing to say guilty on his word.

[Lion of Judah]

I think Littlefinger is incredibly credible given the context. He has a terrible habit of spilling the beans in front of Sansa.

And if you reject the idea he comitted a pre-meditated murder with Olenna, it needs to be explained how he knew about the hairnet adjustment without any prompting, especially since Sansa came directly from the feast to him. Bottom line is, Olenna had means, motive and opportunity, and it was she who took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet - which was the cause of death - beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now that's a fair argument and it's enough to tie her to the crime.

[SeanF]

The Court's Verdict is as follows:-

Margaery Tyrell.

Count 1.1 Guilty 9, Not Guilty 17.

Count 1.2 Guilty 6, Not Guilty 20

Count 1.3 Guilty 1, Not Guilty 25.

Count 2 Guilty 7, Not Guilty 17 (1 verdict of culpable homicide).

Count 3 Guilty 8, Not Guilty 16.

The Defendant is therefore most honourably acquitted of all charges.

[SeanF]

The Court's Verdict in respect of Lady Olenna Tyrell is as follows:-

Count 1.1 Guilty 7, Not Guilty 18.

Count 1.2 Guilty 14, Not Guilty 11.

Count 2 Guilty 15, Not Guilty 9, 1 verdict of culpable homicide.

Count 3, Guilty 8, Not Guilty 17.

Count 4 Guilty 11, Not Guilty 14.

The Defendant is therefore acquitted of one charge of treason (1.3), one charge of perverting the course of justice (3) and one count of obtaining property by deception (4).

The Defendant is found guilty of one charge of treason (1.2) and one count of murder (1.3).

[SeanF]

Lady Olenna Tyrell of Highgarden has been found Guilty of one charge of treason, and one count of murder. These are convictions which would ordinarily result in a death sentence.

However, it is clear that there is considerable sympathy among the judges for the Defendant's actions - with two going so far as to suggest that the Defendant should be rewarded. This Court notes Grand Maester Pycelle's contention that the deceased, King Joffrey Baratheon, was "the noblest lad that ever sat upon the Iron Throne." That opinion appears to be unique to the Grand Maester. More common are the views of Lady Sansa Stark and Lord Tyrion Lannister that the deceased was "a monster". The Court notes that the best that the boy's father, Ser Jaime Lannister, can say about him is that "he was a squirt of seed in Cersei's c**t."

Nevertheless, this Court cannot be seen to condone murder or treason.

Only 6 judges out of 25 opted for a death sentence. Capital punishment is therefore ruled out as a punishment. 5 favoured a fine, 4 no punishment at all, 3 opted for varying terms of imprisonment, 2 for life imprisonment, 3 for house arrest, 1 for ordination into the Silent Sisters, and 1 for community service.

As no form of punishment commands a majority, it is for this Court to reach a consensus between the various forms of punishment put forward.

This Court therefore sentences the Defendant to be placed under house arrest at Highgarden for the rest of her natural life.

[A Man Has Said]

Charge 1.1, treason for supporting Renly: DISMISSED, on the grounds that, being women, none of the defendants were in a position to make or even influence such decision. You might have a case against Mace Tyrell, but he would be innocent of treason as well, as Joffrey is NOT the rightful king. He's a bastard abomination born of incest.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I think Littlefinger is incredibly credible given the context. He has a terrible habit of spilling the beans in front of Sansa.

And if you reject the idea he comitted a pre-meditated murder with Olenna, it needs to be explained how he knew about the hairnet adjustment without any prompting, especially since Sansa came directly from the feast to him. Bottom line is, Olenna had means, motive and opportunity, and it was she who took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet - which was the cause of death - beyond a reasonable doubt.

BUT...not in a court of law!

Charge 1.1, treason for supporting Renly: DISMISSED, on the grounds that, being women, none of the defendants were in a position to make or even influence such decision. You might have a case against Mace Tyrell, but he would be innocent of treason as well, as Joffrey is NOT the rightful king. He's a bastard abomination born of incest.

But they didn't know that at the time.

[Lion of Judah]

Lady Olenna Tyrell of Highgarden has been found Guilty of one charge of treason, and one count of murder. These are convictions which would ordinarily result in a death sentence.

However, it is clear that there is considerable sympathy among the judges for the Defendant's actions - with two going so far as to suggest that the Defendant should be rewarded. This Court notes Grand Maester Pycelle's contention that the deceased, King Joffrey Baratheon, was "the noblest lad that ever sat upon the Iron Throne." That opinion appears to be unique to the Grand Maester. More common are the views of Lady Sansa Stark and Lord Tyrion Lannister that the deceased was "a monster". The Court notes that the best that the boy's father, Ser Jaime Lannister, can say about him is that "he was a squirt of seed in Cersei's c**t."

Nevertheless, this Court cannot be seen to condone murder or treason.

Only 6 judges out of 25 opted for a death sentence. Capital punishment is therefore ruled out as a punishment. 5 favoured a fine, 4 no punishment at all, 3 opted for varying terms of imprisonment, 2 for life imprisonment, 3 for house arrest, 1 for ordination into the Silent Sisters, and 1 for community service.

As no form of punishment commands a majority, it is for this Court to reach a consensus between the various forms of punishment put forward.

This Court therefore sentences the Defendant to be placed under house arrest at Highgarden for the rest of her natural life.

Classic!

[danm_999]

BUT...not in a court of law!

That's how these threads work. We're allowed to use our perspective as readers to provide textual evidence of the crimes these characters are accused of.

Based on the text, we have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of murder and treason. And guess what? That's how the Court ruled on 1.2 and 1.3

[the_one_who_was_promised]

1.Treason

Three Counts against Queen Margaery, and Two against Lady Olenna.

1.1 The Defendants jointly supported the attainted traitor Lord Renly Baratheon in his efforts to usurp the Iron Throne.

This court is aware that there is currently a dispute in connection with the legitimacy of King Tommen Baratheon and the late King Joffrey Baratheon, and that another claimant, Stannis Baratheon has apparently produced evidence as to his apparent right to claim the Iron Throne.

As the issue of Westeros' ruling party is in question, this court will not make a determination as to whether Renly Baratheon was legitimately attainted as a traitor at the time of the commission of this offence, until such time as this matter is resolved in Westeros.

For this reason, charges against defendant(s) are dismissed.

1.2 The Defendants jointly conspired with Lord Peter Baelish to murder his Grace King Joffrey Baratheon, “the noblest lad ever to wear the Crown”, which murder was carried out by the Defendants at the Feast to celebrate the wedding of Queen Margery to the King.

As per above, the court recognises the dispute as to the legitimate succession of the late King Joffrey Baratheon, and the current reigning monarch, King Tommen Baratheon.

As such, this court will make no attempt to make a determination as to whether this act constituted treason, as in doing so, this court would be making a political and legal declaration as to the issue of succession in Westeros; this court has no jurisdiction to intervene in such matters.

As such, this matter will be deferred until such a time as the matters raised above have been resolved.

Consequently, charges against both defendants are summarily dismissed.

1.3 Queen Margaery committed treason by committing adultery with inter alia, her brother Ser Loras Tyrell, Ser Hobar and Ser Horras Redwyne, Jalabar Xho, the Blue Bard, and Hamish the Harper , while married to his Grace, King Tommen Baratheon.

For the same reasons cited in 1.1 and 1.2, charges are dismissed. The court also finds a lack of evidence for the charges cited.

Charges dismissed with no prospect of review or appeal.

2. Murder.

One count against both Defendants.

The Defendants murdered his Grace, King Joffrey Baratheon, as detailed in charge 1.2 above.

Charges against Lady Margaery Tyrrell are dismissed for lack of evidence.

Court finds her co-defendant guilty of murder and rejects defendant's submission that she is instead guilty of voluntary manslaughter, as the court finds no evidence that the defendant was suffering an "imbalance of the mind", was provoked at the time of the offence at a sudden loss of control, or that such action was needed for the protection of others at that specific moment in time.

Nevertheless, the court accepts evidence of mitigating circumstances, arising from defendant's genuine and legitimate fear that her granddaughter would be cruelly mistreated by victim (this will be reflected in the sentencing phase).

3. Perverting the Course of Justice

The Defendants jointly, and intentionally, conspired with Lord Peter Baelish, to implicate Lord Tyrion Lannister, Master of Coin, and Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell, as being responsible for the murder of King Joffrey as aforesaid, which resulted in Lord Tyrion and Lady Sansa being wrongly attainted as traitors.

Once again, the court accepts that there is a dispute as to the succession. Any finding by the court which recognises the attainment of traitors indirectly grants legal and political status to any perceived ruling party, and this court has no jurisdiction to make such determinations.

However, this court finds Olenna Tyrrell guilty of perverting the course of justice in relation to the MURDER of Joffrey Baratheon - but does not recognise that such action led to the attainment of Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister (although such a finding by this court will not prevent them from bringing a civil action for defamation under Westerosi law).

Charges against Lady Margaery Tyrrell are dismissed for lack of evidence.

4. Obtaining Property by Deception

One Count against Lady Olenna.

Lady Olenna has routinely paid suppliers of goods and services in old gold coins that are worth half the figure that has been bargained for.

Guilty

Sentence passed (the maximum sentence that this court may impose is a whole-life term of life imprisonment - once again, this court does not administer the death penalty).

All charges against Margaery Tyrrell are dismissed and she is free to leave court.

Lady Olenna Tyrrell is ordered to compensate all relevant parties for their loss arising from procuring property by deception.

In addition, she is sentenced to a term of 5 years exile (this is more than enough for mudering Joffrey surely!) for the murder of Joffrey Baratheon.