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Crannogmen and Starks are descendants of COTF.....


mattah84

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I have felt for a really long time that the Crannogmen are descendants of the COTF, and that the Starks may somehow be descendants from them as well.

Below is a little bit of background information on the origination of the Starks, the Age of Heroes, as well as some information about the COTF. Beneath this information is the explanation for my theory.

Brandon Stark, also known as Brandon the Builder, was a member of House Stark (and perhaps even its founder) who lived during the Age of Heroes. He owes his name to the fact he built the Wall and Winterfell.[1] Some stories say he did it with the help of Giants. He is accredited for other famous constructions, especially Storm's End.

The Age of Heroes began with the signing of the Pact of the Isle of Faces. The Pact ended the War of the First Men and the Children of the Forest,[2] and lasted for nearly four thousand years.

During that time, a hundred kingdoms rose and fell. This was a rugged time where many ancient traditions and legacies forged by the First Men were established, with influence from the children. Many of these customs live on among the lords of the North, who still bear the blood of the First Men in their veins. The laws of hospitality, the obligation of a judge to also be the executioner, and the renowned Wall are all accredited to these ancestors of the northmen even the barrows of the First Men can still be found throughout the North. This was the time when many legendary kings and heroes walked the earth, such as:

While much was achieved during this ancient era, it was at a cost - in the midst of the Age of Heroes fell the longest and blackest of winters - the the Long Night which heralded the arrival of the Others.

During this time it was also recorded by the Night's Watch that the children of the forest gave the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year.

Children of the Forest Information:

The children did not use metal, weave cloth or build cities; instead they lived off the land, using stone implements, wearing bark leg-bindings and shirts of woven leaves, dwelling in caves, crannogs, and hidden tree villages.

The children wielded obsidian weapons and bows in battle, but also used powerful magic.

Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin, and the skill to create music so beautiful as to bring tears to the eyes of any who heard it, and the greensight ability (although the Maesters believe that the greensight was not magic, simply another kind of knowledge).

Little is known about the children. They are a mysterious and magical people who have not been seen by humans for thousands of years. Tales describe them as diminutive humanoid creatures, dark and beautiful, at their tallest no larger than children.

They usually had large eyes, great golden cat's eyes, that could see down passages where a boy's eyes saw only blackness. A few had green or red eyes; these had the gift of greensight and were known as greenseers.

Bran asks Leaf where the rest of the children are, she replies:

Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundered. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

One thing that I have always found odd, is that GRRM doesn't go very in depth with the origination of the Stark family, or where exactly they came from. We do know that it is possible that Bran the Builder was the first Stark during the Age of Heroes, but we don't really know 100 percent that this is fact. I have also found through my reading and doing research online, that GRRM has conveniently left the majority of Stark Mothers off of their family tree. This seems to me like there is something in the Stark lineage, or a family that married into the Stark Household, that GRRM does not wasnt us as readers to know about yet. We do not know who Eddard's Mother was, and his Grandmother is a bit of a mystery to. There are other mothers from the Stark family that are missing, but I am talking about those closest to the current generation.

Now we know that the Age of Heroes began with a signing of a pact between The First Men and The Children of The Forest. Being that Bran the Builder lived during the Age of Heroes, that he was possibly the First Stark, and that he built the Wall and Storms End (Both very Magical Places), isn't it possible that Bran the Builder had magical abilities??

Maybe sometime after the Pact was signed between the COTF and the First Men, there was some interbreeding between the two races. This could be why you have the Crannogmen with normal facial features, except they are short in stature like the COTF were. There are also at least two quotes in A Song of Ice and Fire, where it is mentioned that the COTF dwelt in Crannogs. Also, in the description above where it details how the Children of the Forest used to dress and how they appeared, their outfits sound strikingly similar to that of Meera and Jojen Reed.

This interbreeding could also be why there is a family like the Starks, who look like The First Men and definitely have First Man blood flowing in their vains, and also may have some COTF blood in their veins as they have some family members with the gift of Greensight (like Bran), and the gift of Warging (like Bran and Jon). The First Men either had to of had these types of powers gifted to them by the COTF and Old Gods of the North upon the signing of their pact, or there was interbreeding between the two races that led to this.

Another thing that I have always felt, and apparently the Greatjohn did to, is that the Direwolves were sent to the Stark Children by the Old Gods of the North (Same Gods as the COTF). Ghost has Red Eyes, Shaggydog has Green Eyes, and the other Four have Gold Eyes. Not to sure why Ghost and Shaggydog's Eye Colors are different then the other Direwolves, but these are the exact same three eye colors that we know the COTF had.

Also, in the last quote above where Bran asks Leaf where all the Children of the Forest have gone, Leaf tells Bran:

Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundered. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us

Leaf is telling Bran that the COTF used to be in control of all Westeros before the First Men came. Leaf also goes into a long list of animals that have been slain or died out since the First Men came. Could it be that these are some of the different animals that the COTF used to Warg into? I took this as these were either animals that the COTF used to warg into, or that the Starks are one of the only COTF descendants still left out there (hence the direwolves outlasting all the other animals).

What do all of you think about this?

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I don't know if CotF and humans are compatible. A CotF couldn't bear a close to human-sized child.

I defnitely see where you are coming from. One of the things that sold it for me as far as the Crannogmen being descendants of the COTF, is how small the Crannogmen are. Their stature is somewhat similar to the COTF so I think that is definitely more plausible then the Starks.

The Starks being descendants is definitely more crackpot, but I felt they may be based on their magical abilities. Expecially since the possibly first known Stark, Bran the Builder, could have had magical abilities. Maybe it is something where COTF females have the babies that come out looking like Crannogmen, and first men females have babies that come out with the Stature of First Men.

Also, another thing which leads me to believe there could of been interbreeding between the COTF and the First Men, is because it isn't just the Starks with their abilities, there are alot of Wildlings that supposedly have skinchanging abilities as well.

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I'd say its not all improbably and could very well be true. It would certainly explain the some First Men's stronger ties to certain magical powers in Westeros. But then again the magical links between the First Men and the magic of the Children could just as well come from other sources, like worshipping the Old Gods.

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I'd say its not all improbably and could very well be true. It would certainly explain the some First Men's stronger ties to certain magical powers in Westeros. But then again the magical links between the First Men and the magic of the Children could just as well come from other sources, like worshipping the Old Gods.

The magical links could very well have come from worshipping the Old Gods as well. That is why I feel that saying the Starks have COTF Blood in addition to the First Man Blood could be considered kind of crackpot. But I still think it may be the case based upon their magical abilities, alot of moms of Stark children missing from the family tree, and the closeness between the Starks and Reeds (Lyanna Stark knew that the Crannogman who was being attacked was her fathers bannerman at Harrenhall, Jojen and Meera Reed pledged their lives to the Starks, and Howland was with Ned at the Tower of Joy). However, the Crannogmen on the other hand are very small just like the COTF, and the COTF used to dwell in CRANNOGS. Since COTF lived in Crannogs, and maybe they interbred with the first men, that could be where the term CRANNOGMAN came from.

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The magical links could very well have come from worshipping the Old Gods as well. That is why I feel that saying the Starks have COTF Blood in addition to the First Man Blood could be considered kind of crackpot. But I still think it may be the case based upon their magical abilities, alot of moms of Stark children missing from the family tree, and the closeness between the Starks and Reeds (Lyanna Stark knew that the Crannogman who was being attacked was her fathers bannerman at Harrenhall, Jojen and Meera Reed pledged their lives to the Starks, and Howland was with Ned at the Tower of Joy). However, the Crannogmen on the other hand are very small just like the COTF, and the COTF used to dwell in CRANNOGS. Since COTF lived in Crannogs, and maybe they interbred with the first men, that could be where the term CRANNOGMAN came from.

:agree: I don't think the Starks have COTF blood in them but I think the Crannogmen do.

Anyone see that thread about Bowan Marsh being a Crannog. Could this theory feed into that one?

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:agree: I don't think the Starks have COTF blood in them but I think the Crannogmen do.

Anyone see that thread about Bowan Marsh being a Crannog. Could this theory feed into that one?

It may just be the Crannogmen who have it, and not the Starks. Maybe the Starks just recieved their magical gifts from the COTF and the Old Gods. This could be why instead of the Stark children having different eye colors, their Direwolves are the ones with the different eye colors (red (ghost), green (shaggydog), or yellow (summer, lady, nymeria, and grey wind), same three eye colors as the COTF).

The thing that throws me off with the Starks, is that Bran the Builder built both the Wall and Storms End, and is considered to maybe be the first Stark of their household. Both The Wall and Storm's End are very magical places so I thought that maybe he had these abilities as well. Perhaps the magic in these two places just comes from Bran receiving help from the Children of the Forest to build them.

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So Tyrion, Penny and Oppo are COFTS?

That was a nice way to try to make the quote sound very simplistic and stupid Jon. I think it was a little different when I wrote it. And I also think I gave other reason besides just them being small in stature. Though I included that because it was the initial thing that gave me the idea when reading.

Look man. You obviously know what my answer will be. No Tyrion, Penny, and Oppo I don't really think are descendants of the COTF. But the Crannogmen I definitely think are. Do you think they are? Instead of asking me a pointless questions, maybe you should read my full post, and respond by just saying whether you think they are descendants of the COTF, or aren't descendants of the COTF.

The Crannogmen are descendants of the COTF because the COTF used to dwell in Crannogs. The COTF used to be small, just like the Crannogmen currently are. From what we have seen, the Crannogmen can have Green Dreams as well just like the COTF did, a.k.a. Jojen Reed. The COTF were inside of the tree that Bran was led to by CRANNOGMEN named Meera and Jojen Reed.

The COTF used to have the ability to Warg or Skinchange, and this is an ability that Jojen picks up on quickly when conversing with Bran and hearing about his Wolf Dreams.

Penny was from Essos, have we ever heard anything about Skin Changers in Essos?????? I don't think so.....

Next time please give a legitimate answer instead of trying to have a dumb argument. So just tell all of us simply whether you think the Starks or Reeds do have COTF Blood, or if you think that they don't, and by all means WHY YOU THINK THAT.

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snip

Sinse Starks and craggonmen are you know human and they don't have nut-brown skin, large ears, big cat's eyes with golden color you are wrong. Not to mention that the CotF were all around Westeros not only at the Neck.

So no this is not a question about it.

EDIT: It's quite impossible to a non human procreate with a human.

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Sinse Starks and craggonmen are you know human and they don't have nut-brown skin, large ears, big cat's eyes with golden color you are wrong. Not to mention that the CotF were all around Westeros not only at the Neck.

So no this is not a question about it.

Maybe after The Long Night the COTF settled in the swamps of The Neck, because its a good hiding place

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Sinse Starks and craggonmen are you know human and they don't have nut-brown skin, large ears, big cat's eyes with golden color you are wrong. Not to mention that the CotF were all around Westeros not only at the Neck.

So no this is not a question about it.

Crannogmen could be COTF interbred with the First Men.

The COTF used to dwell in Crannogs, may have interbred with the First Men, and their descendants that continued dwelling in Crannogs, were maybe known as the Crannogmen. To me it really fits, but maybe not to you and that is your opinion. Also the COTF destroyed both the Arm of Dorne and the Neck at one point to try and prevent the advance of the First Men, and today the Crannogmen live in the Neck. Why the same location if there isn't any relation whatsoever?

The Children of the Forest were all around Westeros, I agree with you on that point and I never once said that they weren't. That is why there are people North of the Wall (Wildlings) with skinchanging abilities, in addition to the Starks south of the wall. Maybe skinchangers aren't located to far south anymore, because they were pushed back by the First Men. Maybe the First Men started cutting down all the Weirwoods in the south and they lost their power down there.

I agree that it is harder to believe that the Starks may be descendants of the COTF, but the Crannogmen really fit to me. I still think that both may be, but thanks for telling me I AM WRONG on the COTF. You seem to say that with a certainty, and I didn't know that you were friends with GRRM and that he filled you in on the outcome of the story Jon. Thats gotta be pretty cool to know everything......

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Maybe after The Long Night the COTF settled in the swamps of The Neck, because its a good hiding place

I think that it was mentioned that after the LN the CofTs moved beyond the wall. I am not sure tho.

What I am sure is that non human procreating with a human is almost impossible and even if (and that is a big if) they did they would left something more than the height at the hybrids. Since there are a lot of short characters through the story short statue is not an uncommon thing.

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Bran asks Leaf where the rest of the children are, she replies:

Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundered. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

To me, this quote either symbolizes that the Starks may be one of the last descendants of the Children of the Forest, or that the Direwolves are one of the last animals left that can be warged. However, we have seen Borroq south of the wall with his Boar, and Varamyr Sixskins was warging a Bird and attacking Jon.

What are your thoughts on this quote about the COTF?

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they could posSibly have been children of the forest thaT allied with the first men eArly on in the war betweeN the first men and the children of the forest. this could have been coNsidered betrayal by the other children of the forest. the rest of the children mIght then have turned them into humanS but not all the way so makIng crannogmen.

or Something along those lines.

i'm probably taKing it a bIt far here but it is just aN idea. still I see a lot of Good in your op.

edit: capitals

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Sinse Starks and craggonmen are you know human and they don't have nut-brown skin, large ears, big cat's eyes with golden color you are wrong. Not to mention that the CotF were all around Westeros not only at the Neck.

So no this is not a question about it.

EDIT: It's quite impossible to a non human procreate with a human.

Little is known about the children. They are a mysterious and magical people who have not been seen by humans for thousands of years. Tales describe them as diminutive humanoid creatures, dark and beautiful, at their tallest no larger than children.

I wouldn't say that the COTF are completed non-human Jon. They definitely have human aspects to them, but there are significant differences as well such as the height, and the eyes that you pointed out. But it still seems like a stretch to say that they are not humans.

However, saying that they are not human at all, what are you basing that on?

Did GRRM ever tell us that they were not human in the least??? (I know that you are real good friends with him and he told how the story will turn out so i'm guessing you know).

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Little is known about the children. They are a mysterious and magical people who have not been seen by humans for thousands of years. Tales describe them as diminutive humanoid creatures, dark and beautiful, at their tallest no larger than children.

I wouldn't say that the COTF are completed non-human Jon. They definitely have human aspects to them, but there are significant differents as well such as the heigh, and the eyes that you pointed out.

However, to say that they are not human, what are you basing that on?

Did GRRM ever tell us that they were not human??? (I know that you are real god friends with him and he told how the story will turn out).

You remember how Leaf was described? This is a humanoid but not a human. How can a humanoid and human hybrid bear nothing from one of him/her species?
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Since Starks and craggonmen are you know human and they don't have nut-brown skin, large ears, big cat's eyes with golden color...

You forgot to mention the nut brown skin is dappled with lighter spots like a deer and that they have only three fingers with long black claws.

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