Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar

[SelaBela]

I think thats where prophecy is tricky though, and not meant literally always. BUT I really do think its Jaime. He'd probably be thinking how he could fit one hand around her tiny delicate throat or something if he kills her.

[Cas Stark]

He has two hands, one is his real hand, the other is his golden hand.

[Chickren]

Sure, he could use his golden thumb to put pressure on her windpipe, but then it's not really "wrapping his hands around [her] pale white throat"... It's sort of a stretch for me considering how literal the prophecy seems to be.

This is a vision. What does it look like if a golden hand is pressed to one side of her throat and the real hand is pressed to the other? It looks like someone has wrapped their hands around her throat.

Even the description of the golden hand makes it sound slightly cupped as opposed to fingers spread wide and palm flat. I don't even think there's a semantical argument about the hand wrapping.

[Budj]

Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds. Tommen and Myrcella won't be long for this world. That is probably what will get Jaime to kill her.

I hope it isn't him though. I was kind of hoping he would head North or to the Vale as I have a feeling when Cersei dies Jaime won't be far behind...just like their birth.

[Kittykatknits]

Sure, he could use his golden thumb to put pressure on her windpipe, but then it's not really "wrapping his hands around [her] pale white throat"... It's sort of a stretch for me considering how literal the prophecy seems to be.

I wouldn't get caught up in the mechanics of it. If Martin means for the valonqar to be Jaime. then I'm confident that he will write it in a believable manner. The bigger point of this prophecy, to me, is the manner of her death itself. She isn't going to be killed by poison or a sword like others. Wrapping your hands around another person and choking the life from them strikes me as a very intimate and very personal method of killing someone. It also hints that emotion, whether that is rage or a feeling of betrayl, will be behind her death. It won't be planned (like poison) or via a court system (beheading). It's going to be something very personal for both Cersei and the eventual valonqar. That leaves two characters in this series where I'd say this applies - Tyrion and Jaime. Tyrion is still on the other side of the world and Cersei thinks it is him which is likely a hint that it is not.

[Cas Stark]

I wouldn't get caught up in the mechanics of it. If Martin means for the valonqar to be Jaime. then I'm confident that he will write it in a believable manner. The bigger point of this prophecy, to me, is the manner of her death itself. She isn't going to be killed by poison or a sword like others. Wrapping your hands around another person and choking the life from them strikes me as a very intimate and very personal method of killing someone. It also hints that emotion, whether that is rage or a feeling of betrayl, will be behind her death. It won't be planned (like poison) or via a court system (beheading). It's going to be something very personal for both Cersei and the eventual valonqar. That leaves two characters in this series where I'd say this applies - Tyrion and Jaime. Tyrion is still on the other side of the world and Cersei thinks it is him which is likely a hint that it is not.

Good points about strangulation being personal, emotional and probably also unplanned.

[TheButcherCrow]

The last lines of Cersei's last POV:

She didn't struggle. She just stared into those eyes, her eyes. She had always known it would be him, somehow she had always known. Her love. Her Jaime. Her Valonquar.

Or something along those lines that's actually good writing ;)

[Chickren]

The last lines of Cersei's last POV:

Or something along those lines that's actually good writing ;)

But you left out the part where just as she's blacking out she stabs him with the poisoned dagger she keeps strapped to her thigh. . .

[TheButcherCrow]

But you left out the part where just as she's blacking out she stabs him with the poisoned dagger she keeps strapped to her thigh. . .

Totally within the realms of possibility.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

But you left out the part where just as she's blacking out she stabs him with the poisoned dagger she keeps strapped to her thigh. . .

Har! imagine if tv show Shae(she's got a dagger strapped to her thigh) does that to Tyrion as he's choking her

[J. Stargaryen]

No, wraps the chain of "hands" around Cersei's throat.

Jaime certainly doesn't have any political ambition, but it's possible that he would take the office of Hand out of a sense of duty, eventually. A user, maybe Fire Eater, posted an interesting bit of foreshadowing about this not too long ago.

As I suspected, it was one of Fire Eater's posts:

Jaime's description of a dead Tywin: Bloody hell, he's grinning like a bridegroom at his bedding.

I think Daven Lannister is that kind of bridegroom.

"And the king is just a boy," said the oldest of the four septas. "Who is to rule us until he comes of age?"

"Lord Tywin's brother," said a guardsman. "Or that Lord Tyrell, might be. Or the Kingslayer"

Kevan has had his brief rule, he will be followed briefly by the Hand, Mace Tyrell, now that Kevan is dead. Jaime will later become Cersei's Hand of the King.

This may be reaching but Jaime may be the last to run the crown before the king who is no longer a boy and has come of age, Jon, takes the throne.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I'm not sure if anyone has made another post about this, if you have, I apologize. I did search and didn't find anything specific, so I'm going to go ahead.

This seems really simple, maybe too simple, but I can't get past it at the moment.

Jaime cannot be the valonqar because he only has one hand. The golden hand cannot choke anyone because 1. its shaped half-closed for holding wine goblets, and 2. it can't produce pressure.

The prophecy clearly states that the valonqar will wraps his hands (plural) around her pale throat. Unless Jaime is regrowing a hand anytime soon, it's not going to happen.

So that's my take. What do you think? Too obvious?

I think like many "prophecies" within the book you have to read between the lines....also I don't think that the actual prophecy that maggy states says anything about strangulation, it was just something that Cersei conjured up within her dream.

Even taken literally, Jaime can STILL stangle someone....however, we know that prophecies are NOT literal in a lot of ways, and Jaime can very easily bruing about Cersei's death in other ways.

I truly think Jaime will actually end up possibly siding with the Brotherhood without Banners, after he finally sees the devastation that his House has caused on all the kingdom, and especially since he has finally realized Cersei was playing him like a fool all along. Jaime= perfect catspaw

[Har!]

I posted in another thread regarding the chain of hands that Tyrion used to strangle Shae, but another alternative could be the fact that the golden hand is strapped to Jaime's arm - hence it has straps, hence it could be literally wrapped around Cersei's throat as a garrote.

There are probably other alternatives and a creative writer like GRRM will have no problem if it really is Jaime in figuring out how to make it fit w the prophecy.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

The mechanics of the golden hand aside, In my gut, I don't think Jaime will kill Cersei. The opposite of love is not hatred, but indifference. We've seen this when Jaime ignores his sister's impassioned plea for help while imprisoned I believe the worst way Jaime could hurt Cersei is to ignore her, abandon her, or fall in love with another. If he strangles her out of passion and hatred, she still wins.. it means she still has a strong hold on him. To put it another way, he's just "not that into her" anymore.

But I also agree with what other posters have said about strangulation being personal and intimate, so whoever the valonqar is, it will be no stranger, and I think it will be a man. Women don't usually strangle other women regardless of the whole "valyrian is genderless" argument. It feels like it will be a man whom she's had intimate relations with - how about the youngest kettleblack that she betrayed?

[J. Stargaryen]

The mechanics of the golden hand aside, In my gut, I don't think Jaime will kill Cersei. The opposite of love is not hatred, but indifference. We've seen this when Jaime ignores his sister's impassioned plea for help while imprisoned I believe the worst way Jaime could hurt Cersei is to ignore her, abandon her, or fall in love with another. If he strangles her out of passion and hatred, she still wins.. it means she still has a strong hold on him. To put it another way, he's just "not that into her" anymore.

But I also agree with what other posters have said about strangulation being personal and intimate, so whoever the valonqar is, it will be no stranger, and I think it will be a man. Women don't usually strangle other women regardless of the whole "valyrian is genderless" argument. It feels like it will be a man whom she's had intimate relations with - how about the youngest kettleblack that she betrayed?

Do you now agree that Jaime *can* be the Valonqar?

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Do you now agree that Jaime *can* be the Valonqar?

Ehhh.... I suppose I should never say never with this series, but I'm not convinced for all of the above reasons I posted. The golden hand doesn't fit with the prophecy unless you take liberties with the word "wrapping" and/or the symbolism of "hand", which, for a prophecy which was otherwise very literal (3 and 16 children, you will marry the king, not the prince, etc.), it's hard to believe. Beyond that, as I stated, Jaime is more disgusted than angry with his sister. I don't see him flying into a blind rage and strangling her. He would more likely leave her to her fate and lead his own life. We'll see, I suppose... either I'll end up being incredible insightful, or just willfully ignorant. :dunno:

[Little and Less]

_{I'm with everyone - Jaime will be the valonqar - this would have a lot of emotional impact. Besides I think the death of the "good" children (and my guess is Cersei will have a lot to do with this), Tommen and Myrcella, wil be the final straw for Jaime. (I say good, because let's face it Joffery was NOT.) In his dream, Rheagar told him to protect the children, Jaime has always deeply regretted not protecting the Targ heirs to the throne from essentially his own family (the Mountain and Lorch were Tywin's and Lannister henchmen). Again, he will be thrown into the same position of saving royal(his) children from his own family (Cersei).}

[J. Stargaryen]

Ehhh.... I suppose I should never say never with this series, but I'm not convinced for all of the above reasons I posted. The golden hand doesn't fit with the prophecy unless you take liberties with the word "wrapping" and/or the symbolism of "hand", which, for a prophecy which was otherwise very literal (3 and 16 children, you will marry the king, not the prince, etc.), it's hard to believe. Beyond that, as I stated, Jaime is more disgusted than angry with his sister. I don't see him flying into a blind rage and strangling her. He would more likely leave her to her fate and lead his own life. We'll see, I suppose... either I'll end up being incredible insightful, or just willfully ignorant. :dunno:

I was just wondering if you had moved off of your original position that: "Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar" since he only has one hand.

[Beric Zoolander]

There is something oddly soothing and incredibly visual about Jaime choking Cersie out with his golden hand. Cersie assumes its Tyrion and I think honestly from that fact alone it probably is not him. And if it is him, it won't be as straight forward as anyone thinks. Prophecies never are.

[Chickren]

I'm not certain Jaime is the valonqar, I just think there's a lot of poetry to the idea that he is. Not just because of their intensive love, but also in the sense that the people who created the mess with the Baratheon inheritance through uncontrolled passion would kind of resolve it through an act of uncontrolled passion. That, and there's a certain satisfaction to seeing the Lannisters continue to be their own undoing.

And don't take this as me hating Jaime and Cersei. I'm a hardcore Jaime fan and I think Cersei's one hell of a character.