alienarea Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Now if the Others make it to KL (or wherever Cersei is then) and Benjen has become an Other he is still Ned's little brother ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'm not certain Jaime is the valonqar, I just think there's a lot of poetry to the idea that he is. Not just because of their intensive love, but also in the sense that the people who created the mess with the Baratheon inheritance through uncontrolled passion would kind of resolve it through an act of uncontrolled passion. That, and there's a certain satisfaction to seeing the Lannisters continue to be their own undoing.And don't take this as me hating Jaime and Cersei. I'm a hardcore Jaime fan and I think Cersei's one hell of a character.Also, with Cersei's prophecy in particular, it shows how her obsession over it has been the very thing that has led, if things progress as they have been, to it coming true. From the very first night when she killed Melara, her always hating and fearing Tyrion, even her refusal to bear Robert's children...so much of the prophecy that has been fulfilled already are due to Cersei's own actions, driven by her obsession over it. Gotta love that irony. So, the ultimate irony would be that she's killed not by the brother she hated, tortured and feared all her life, but by the other one, her mirror image, the one she manipulated, who was putty in her hands for most of their lives, the brother from whom she would never expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well theres thisYes I never miss a chance to show my topic :P. but it does discuss how Jaime might be the valonqar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toshio.Keepiru Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 How can he choke Cersei when Brienne is leading him to Lady Stoneheart? I guess he might point at his fake hand and start crying.... then Lady Stoneheart will forgive him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 While I wouldn't bet anything important on it, I feel fairly sure Jaime's story won't end with whatever Lady S has planned for him - at least not this time around, but she still might be the one who ends up doing him in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I guess he might point at his fake hand and start crying.... :rofl: Or she will find it hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toshio.Keepiru Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 While I wouldn't bet anything important on it, I feel fairly sure Jaime's story won't end with whatever Lady S has planned for him - at least not this time around, but she still might be the one who ends up doing him in.Maybe she gives Jaime a "choice" like she did Brienne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woftis Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Maybe she gives Jaime a "choice" like she did Brienne........or hopefuly he manages to cut her head off :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickren Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Maybe she gives Jaime a "choice" like she did Brienne...Ha. Like, "Go strangle your sister or we'll hang you?"I think the odds are in his favor when it comes to escaping LS. But with GRRM one never knows. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon-Pale Maiden Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 I was just wondering if you had moved off of your original position that: "Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar" since he only has one hand.I'm sorry to say that I have not. There have been many great arguments on why the golden hand counts, but I'm not convinced. The positioning of the hand is wrong to be 'wrapped', and it doesn't match with the prophecy. I do thank everyone for posting their reasoning though, there were some interesting ideas bandied about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I'm not sure if anyone has made another post about this, if you have, I apologize. I did search and didn't find anything specific, so I'm going to go ahead. This seems really simple, maybe too simple, but I can't get past it at the moment.Jaime cannot be the valonqar because he only has one hand. The golden hand cannot choke anyone because 1. its shaped half-closed for holding wine goblets, and 2. it can't produce pressure.The prophecy clearly states that the valonqar will wraps his hands (plural) around her pale throat. Unless Jaime is regrowing a hand anytime soon, it's not going to happen. So that's my take. What do you think? Too obvious?Tyrion killed Shae with golden hands, spun round her neck.Could Jaime kill Cersei with golden hands, spun round her neck? With one hand, tightening it until she loses her breath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 to what J. Stargaryen posted I would addBetween them, the Two Kings (Highgarden and Casterly Rock) had six-hundred banners flying, five thousand mounted knights, and ten times as many freeriders and men-at-arms . . . Near four thousand men had burned that day, among them King Mern of the Reach. King Loren had escaped King Loren Lannister was captured, and later let go.A combined force of a similar number, perhaps 50,000 composed of Lannister and Tyrell forces, lead by Lord Mace Tyrell of Highgarden and Ser Jaime Lannister, will meet Dany and her dragons for a second Field of Fire. Mace Tyrell will die in the battle, and Jaime will be captured. Tyrion will set Jaime free, to repay Jaime for his debt for freeing him.Jaime gets a golden hand to replace the one he lost; the Hand of the King usually wears a golden hand of some form on his person to signify his position. This foreshadows Jaime finally accepting Cersei's offer for the position of the Hand. After Mace Tyrell dies, Cersei will replace Mace with Jaime as her Hand. Jaime will accept, as Cersei will have grown increasingly mentally unstable, after the events of ADwD Epilogue and Tommen's death. Jaime will remain Hand just to keep things running. Like Tyrion did with Shae, Jaime will wrap the Hand's chain, consisting of golden hands, around Cersei's throat and choke her to death.I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together. We will leave this world together, as we once came into it."If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me.""He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Godric Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 As others have said, because we know that Cersei believes the valonqar to be Tyrion, it has to be Jaime. There is just beautiful irony in that she has been preparing for Tyrion to be her undoing her whole life and it's her twin. I do concede that "hands" is a nice catch, I still think it has to be Jaime. It is not impossible for him to use one hand as leverage and the other for pressure and to choke Cersei out.Also, with Cersei's prophecy in particular, it shows how her obsession over it has been the very thing that has led, if things progress as they have been, to it coming true. From the very first night when she killed Melara, her always hating and fearing Tyrion, even her refusal to bear Robert's children...so much of the prophecy that has been fulfilled already are due to Cersei's own actions, driven by her obsession over it. Gotta love that irony. So, the ultimate irony would be that she's killed not by the brother she hated, tortured and feared all her life, but by the other one, her mirror image, the one she manipulated, who was putty in her hands for most of their lives, the brother from whom she would never expect it.It would be especially interesting if the ending of the prophecy was even more self-fulfilling. Like if something Cersei said about/does to Tyrion because she fears him is what sets Jaime off. I don't exactly see how it could happen given where Tyrion currently is, but I think it'd be the ultimate irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSouthEastWesteros Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I believe Cersei will either directly or indirectly cause Brienne's death, and as she has taught Jaime the meaning of a 'true knight,' and with Cersei having lost everything - Especially her mind - Wth her plans to torch KL (my theory) Jaime will do a truly knightly act by killing her out of mercy and to save Kings Landing....And we come full circle, only with a much, much different Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon-Pale Maiden Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Like Tyrion did with Shae, Jaime will wrap the Hand's chain, consisting of golden hands, around Cersei's throat and choke her to death.If Shae hadn't already been killed by exactly the same method, I would say sure. But I have always discounted the chain of hands to work symbolically for Jaime to kill Cersei because it's already been done. "Hands of gold are always cold" belongs to Tyrion. To me, it would feel cheap to repeat the same thing for Jaime. I just don't think GRRM would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sworn Shield Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Stannis is the younger brother of Robert, Stannis has to be a candidate to strangle Cercei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon-Pale Maiden Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Stannis is the younger brother of Robert, Stannis has to be a candidate to strangle Cercei.For a long time, I thought so too. But is strangling really Stannis's style? I don't think Stannis wouldn't allow such rage and passion to boil over like that.. just seems too intimate and passionate for Stannis. Stannis strikes me as the kind of person who is cold and calculating, preferring to kill from afar as he did with Penrose and Renly. Everyone else died at a word, but I don't remember Stannis ever doing the deed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sworn Shield Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 For a long time, I thought so too. But is strangling really Stannis's style? I don't think Stannis wouldn't allow such rage and passion to boil over like that.. just seems too intimate and passionate for Stannis. Stannis strikes me as the kind of person who is cold and calculating, preferring to kill from afar as he did with Penrose and Renly. Everyone else died at a word, but I don't remember Stannis ever doing the deed himself.Maybe, but Stannis did say this:"Would that all the lords of the Seven Kingdoms had but a single neck..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shierashiera Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Stannis is the younger brother of Robert, Stannis has to be a candidate to strangle Cercei.Why Stannis in particular? There are many candidates for the role of valonquar if we cinsider younger siblings, it could be Sandor, who is Gregor's younger brother and has committed several crimes for the Lannisters, it could be any of Robb's younger siblings, any of Ser Stevron's younger siblings,, a Kettleblack, Edmure, Martin Lannister, Aegon, and the list continues.Stannis, if he had the chance he would imprison or execute Cersei or force her to join the Silent Sisters, but strangle her?Jaime and Tyrion have the motives. Tyrion is the obvious choice and she is convinced that one day he shall kill her. Prophecies have several meanings. Jaime during FFC, starts to resent Cersei, loathes her and in the end he chooses to embark on a doomed attempt to rescue Sansa Stark with Brienne, rather than aid Cersei. He seems to be a more likely candidate than his younger brother. Plus, Cersei is his older sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chequered Raven Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Sure, he could use his golden thumb to put pressure on her windpipe, but then it's not really "wrapping his hands around [her] pale white throat"... It's sort of a stretch for me considering how literal the prophecy seems to be.I think we should not do to much nitpicking here.I have no golden Hand, and I never choked someone to death, but I can't see much difficulties doing it if I had one and wished to choke someone...And, from the authors point of view, it would be way more obvious if the prophesy says something about choking with a golden hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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