Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

I think it will be Jaime. He now knows what kind of person Cersei is. He blames her for what Joffrey became and for his death. Add that Tommen and Myrcella probably both will die within Cersei's reach.

he knows what sort of person she is now. He was blinded by love/stupidity before. Now he knows, he wants to save his children of course.

It broke my heart when a crying Tommen tried to tell Uncle Jaime that he would 'go away inside when Joffey...' Only to be interrupted by a furious Cersei ranting about not knowing his brother's name and to get back into the Sept.

[Quiet Isle]

I wouldn't get caught up in the mechanics of it. If Martin means for the valonqar to be Jaime. then I'm confident that he will write it in a believable manner. The bigger point of this prophecy, to me, is the manner of her death itself. She isn't going to be killed by poison or a sword like others. Wrapping your hands around another person and choking the life from them strikes me as a very intimate and very personal method of killing someone. It also hints that emotion, whether that is rage or a feeling of betrayl, will be behind her death. It won't be planned (like poison) or via a court system (beheading). It's going to be something very personal for both Cersei and the eventual valonqar. That leaves two characters in this series where I'd say this applies - Tyrion and Jaime. Tyrion is still on the other side of the world and Cersei thinks it is him which is likely a hint that it is not.

This above. intimate death. it's jaime.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

How? Did she have a knife to his throat the whole time they were banging?

If Cersei gets the great idea, to torch KL with wildfire (there seems to be some foreshadowing, tower of the hand ring any bells?), I'm pretty sure he would kill her.

Would also be a great way to close his redemption arc.

His bad reputation started with him killing Aerys when he wanted to burn KL and in the end he kills his sister, who is about to do the same thing.

Seems like a pretty solid theory to me.

[Quiet Isle]

If Cersei gets the great idea, to torch KL with wildfire (there seems to be some foreshadowing, tower of the hand ring any bells?), I'm pretty sure he would kill her.

Would also be a great way to close his redemption arc.

His bad reputation started with him killing Aerys when he wanted to burn KL and in the end he kills his sister, who is about to do the same thing.

Seems like a pretty solid theory to me.

I would add to the above - if Cersei gets wind that Jaime is coming to claim his children, I think she may very well kill them to prevent Jaime from having them. I think she's that vindictive. and if the game is up with respect to the children being acknowledged as bastards with no real claim to the throne, they would be of no use to her. But she could hurt Jaime with it. and he would then strangle her. and it would indeed also play in to the wildfire scheme as you have noted. she would kill the children and torch KL, since she would never have it herself.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I would add to the above - if Cersei gets wind that Jaime is coming to claim his children, I think she may very well kill them to prevent Jaime from having them. I think she's that vindictive. and if the game is up with respect to the children being acknowledged as bastards with no real claim to the throne, they would be of no use to her. But she could hurt Jaime with it. and he would then strangle her. and it would indeed also play in to the wildfire scheme as you have noted. she would kill the children and torch KL, since she would never have it herself.

I honsetly can't picture Cersei killing her children.

One of her very few redeeming qualities is, that she loves her children above all.

[Quiet Isle]

I honsetly can't picture Cersei killing her children.

One of her very few redeeming qualities is, that she loves her children above all.

I fully understand what you are saying, but why does she "love" them? i believe if they become unuseful to her, then they will have little left for her to "love." we shall see.

[Cas Stark]

I honsetly can't picture Cersei killing her children.

One of her very few redeeming qualities is, that she loves her children above all.

I don't believe she would kill them, but not because she "loves" them, she is incapable of love, she mourned Joff for about a minute before she turned to vengeance and had sex over his dead body, she abuses and bullies Tommen, she claims to love her children because they represent her source of power...they are the Baratheons via whom she is Queen, just as she claims to love Jamie, but doesn't.

I could more easily see her going 'mad king' and deciding to burn down King's Landing, since I can't see what purpose killing her own children would ever serve for her.

[Chickren]

I honsetly can't picture Cersei killing her children.

Me neither. Unless it was some sort of grand murder/suicide if all hope seems lost.

One of her very few redeeming qualities is, that she loves her children above all.

She loves them, but I think she loves herself most. There have been opportunities for her to do what's best/safest for her kids and instead she wants to go the route that does the most for her. It's kind of a classic narcissist parental love from her in that she does really love them, but in a very self-oriented way.

[Horza]

I wouldn't read to much in to that. Jaime back in GOT also said he would prefer a good clean death to the life of a cripple and look at him now. In the same conversation, he challenged Tyrion as to which side he was on. The funny thing is that Tyrion, by a much stronger degree, does support CR and Lannister values while Jaime does not. He's been turning away from it almost from the first book. He has chosen the KG white over the Lannister crimson, refused the handship, left his sister, helped his brother to escape, abandoned his duties to look for Sansa, and gave some incredibly generous terms while in the Riverlands. Jaime should have been asking himself this same question.

Beyond this, there many other examples of characters making statements that have a twist of irony to them later. Theon's comment on Hodor knowing his name come to mind. The big takeaway from this is that he worries over the impact to Tommen if he were to kill Cersei. Another way to look at this would be - what would Jaime do if Tommen was no longer a consideration?

This is actually pretty close to what I'd say about Jaime, it's just that I read the character progression differently. My impression from ASOS+AFFC is that Jaime and Cersei's arcs are diverging. The symbolism of his lost hand being the hand that held on to Cersei as he was born is quite important, I suspect. The severing of their personal and emotional connection has, I think, made Jaime a much less likely candidate in the strangle-Cersei-after-her-kids-are-dead stakes - it's removed him from her world and from the sort of passionate involvement that would be required for the act. On finding his children dead thanks to another one of Cersei's wacky schemes Old Jaime might have done something like what a lot of people are envisaging, this Jaime I think would walk away.

If Cersei gets the great idea, to torch KL with wildfire (there seems to be some foreshadowing, tower of the hand ring any bells?), I'm pretty sure he would kill her.

Would also be a great way to close his redemption arc.

His bad reputation started with him killing Aerys when he wanted to burn KL and in the end he kills his sister, who is about to do the same thing.

Seems like a pretty solid theory to me.

That would work and would probably be great on the page (and hopefully on the screen) but I think it's a little too close to what most people expect. I don't mean to be reflexively contrarian here, but in this instance I suspect there is misdirection up GRRM's sleeve.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

Cersei loved Joffrey. Joffrey was what she could never be. Openly cruel, king and male.

How often to we hear her thoughts on Myrcella? I'll be very interested to see her reaction to her disfigurement. Will she comfort her child or rant, rave and focus on vengeance because this humiliates her?

How about how she treats Tommen when he throws up in the Sept? She is furious with him for pronouncing Joffrey's name wrong. When he informs her HE is the king, her blind fury forces him to partake in something traumatising for an eight year old so he is subdued again.

None of that screams love to me. She sees herself as a game player, her children are her pawns.

[tyrionsparamour]

i think you are taking to much into the actual wording yes jamie has only one hand but he is still capable of choking her with one hand maybe his gold hand will hold or put pressure to keep her from fighting or getting away

i mean how scary would it be if maggy said the valonqar shall wrap his one good hand about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

i would be like huh wtf laugh leaving the tent

plus its the perfect irony for jamie to do the dead she keeps trying to get him to protect her from tyrion then it turns out she needed protection from him classic cant wait lol

[A Crow Come Over]

Volanqar = Sandor, it is known

[Quiet Isle]

Yeah, the only real question is what Cersei could do that's bad enough to make him want to strangle her.

kill her children when Jaime comes to wrench them away from her. don't argue with me that she LOVES her children. she loves them as a narcissist does = as extensions of herself - to get her what she needs.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

kill her children when Jaime comes to wrench them away from her. don't argue with me that she LOVES her children. she loves them as a narcissist does = as extensions of herself - to get her what she needs.

Bingo. Her emotional abuse of Tommen and the way she lived through Joff shows that.

[TheButcherCrow]

How often to we hear her thoughts on Myrcella? I'll be very interested to see her reaction to her disfigurement. Will she comfort her child or rant, rave and focus on vengeance because this humiliates her?

Cersei's thoughts on Myrcella's disfigurement:

“Myrcella was attacked by a Dornish knight named Gerold Dayne. She’s alive, but hurt. He slashed her face open, she … I’m sorry … she lost an ear.” “An ear.” Cersei stared at him, aghast. She was just a child, my precious princess. She was so pretty, too.

and

Who was this Ser Gerold and why would he wish to harm her daughter? She could not make any sense of this, unless … “Tyrion lost half his nose in the Battle of the Blackwater. Slashing her face, cutting off an ear … the Imp’s grubby little fingers are all over this.”

and

“Prince Doran says nothing of your brother. And Balon Swann writes that Myrcella puts it all on this Gerold Dayne. Darkstar, they call him.”

She gave a bitter laugh. “Whatever they call him, he is my brother’s catspaw. Tyrion has friends amongst the Dornish. The Imp planned this all along. It was Tyrion who betrothed Myrcella to Prince Trystane. Now I see why.”

“You see Tyrion in every shadow.”

“He is a creature of the shadows. He killed Joffrey. He killed Father. Did you think he would stop there? I feared that the Imp was still in King’s Landing plotting harm to Tommen, but he must have gone to Dorne instead to kill Myrcella first.” Cersei paced the width of the cell. “I need to be with Tommen. These Kingsguard knights are as useless as nipples on a breastplate.” She rounded on her uncle. “Ser Arys was killed, you said.”

She is shocked & aghast for about 2 seconds before she starts making it all about herself (as per) & then she decides to use the fact that Aerys has been killed to try to save her own skin. Someone said "narcissist", bingo. Paranoid narcissist with borderline megalomania. I mean, she literally doesn't even ask how Myrcella is, when she's coming home etc. She shows pretty much no concern for her daughter at all.

[Chickren]

She is shocked & aghast for about 2 seconds before she starts making it all about herself (as per) & then she decides to use the fact that Aerys has been killed to try to save her own skin. Someone said "narcissist", bingo. Paranoid narcissist with borderline megalomania. I mean, she literally doesn't even ask how Myrcella is, when she's coming home etc. She shows pretty much no concern for her daughter at all.

I never really thought much about it, but I think you're on to something here. I wonder what her reaction will be when she's face to face with Myrcella? Maybe she'll do something to Myrcella that will send Jaime over the edge? We know he's got a soft spot for physical outcasts, on top of feeling some fatherly concern her.

[northernshe-wolf]

Imo, yes. At the risk of making a meta-argument, there is a beautiful tragedy (imo) about the the crushing inevitability of it being Jaime. In short, I really want it to be Jaime. Also, he actually has two hands it's just that one of them happens to be made of gold. IIRC the hand is shaped in such a way as to allow him to hold a goblet/cup, that's sounds like it would work as a means of strangulation as well.

I agree. It should definitely be Jaime.

[WesterosGypsy]

What if it happens by someone else through Jaime? In other words, what if Jaime orders it or allows it to be done? I can see Cersei turning on Jaime to blame him for "not being there" to prevent the deaths of their children instead of accepting her own role in their deaths through her own machinations. If she were to throw that in his face, I can see Jaime strangling her or allowing someone else to do it. Especially given the resentment towards her that is building within him over the past several books.

[Chickren]

What if it happens by someone else through Jaime? In other words, what if Jaime orders it or allows it to be done? I can see Cersei turning on Jaime to blame him for "not being there" to prevent the deaths of their children instead of accepting her own role in their deaths through her own machinations. If she were to throw that in his face, I can see Jaime strangling her or allowing someone else to do it. Especially given the resentment towards her that is building within him over the past several books.

No one can say Jaime doesn't do his own dirty work. If he wants her strangled, he'll do it himself.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I think it will be Jaime, probably to save the children once she goes insane. It just makes a better story. Not everything must be mysterious/surprising.