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Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar


Moon-Pale Maiden

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Here's why I think the valonqar does not refer to Cersei's little brother. It may or may not be slightly more convincing than just the "your/the" argument. This is the second and last place I will post this

The placement of the valonqar line is kind of odd. She talks about it after Cersei asks if they will have children. Maggy only gives them answers that relate to what they ask. In my opinion, it HAS to be one of the children. The structure of Maggy's answers make it such that it doesn't make sense for it to be her own siblings. Allow me to explain.

1)Cersei asks "When will I wed the prince?"

The woman answers "Never. You will wed the king."

The first part is a direct answer to her question. The second part gives more information relating directly to the initial question

2) Cersei asks “I will be queen, though?

The woman answers “Aye. Queen you shall be…until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Once again, the first part is a direct answer, with the latter expounding on the question that was asked. It is not related tangentially, it is a clarification. “You will be queen, BUT it won't last.”

3) Cersei asks “Will the king and I have children?”

The woman answers, “Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Once again, the first part is the yes or no answer that Cersei wants. But the second part, following the pattern, must be clarifying information related to the original question. This means that a sudden jump from talking about Cersei’s children to talking about how Cersei’s brother will kill her doesn’t make sense. Maggy answers the question that was asked and gives extra information related directly to that question. The valonqar does not refer to Jaime or Tyrion. It is someone else entirely. There’s a break between the sentence that starts “oh, aye. Six-and-ten. . “ and the one that starts “Gold shall be their crowns. . .” so it’s not completely clear to the reader that there is no pause in Maggy’s speech, but I think that there was no significant pause to indicate a change of topic when the memory actually happened. That short break is only written to show Cersei reacting to the answer. The valonqar is NOT Jaime but it’s also not Tyrion. I think it is one of the children, since her initial question was about the children.

An interesting side note about the younger and more beautiful queen…I think it’s possible it already happened. I think the younger and more beautiful queen could Lyanna. She was named Queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar, was she not? And wasn’t the whole war thing started largely because Rhaegar loved Lyanna? Well Rhaegar died and Cersei entered a loveless marriage with Robert. One could argue that she certainly did take everything she held dear at the point when the prophecy was made.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Gods I hate GRRM.....something struck me when I read #124 above. What if the valonqar is Varys? What if he is the little brother? It is widely speculated on the forum that Varys may be the uncle to fAegon and that he may be the brother of Serra (who was married to Ilyrio).

Although I have always thought it is Jaime (and as I reread Jaime's POV in AFFC I have noticed how he is disassociating himself from Cersei)...it's funny how many of the Lannisters Varys has taken out (especially if you include his whispers). He's basically Tyrion's accomplice when Tyrion killed Tywin (and helped him escape). At the end of ADWD, he kills Kevan Lannister and Pycelle....so he hasn't left KL yet. It wouldn't be all that surprising if Vary's kills Cersei and sets up Jaime to take the fall. Sounds crackpot I know, but Varys is always doing things "for the children" and if fAegon's on his way to KL....well Varys may have to take out Cersei before she sets all of KL ablaze...what a more fitting way then to strangle her and then leave Jaime's golden hand as evidence...

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Here's why I think the valonqar does not refer to Cersei's little brother. It may or may not be slightly more convincing than just the "your/the" argument. This is the second and last place I will post this

The placement of the valonqar line is kind of odd. She talks about it after Cersei asks if they will have children. Maggy only gives them answers that relate to what they ask. In my opinion, it HAS to be one of the children. The structure of Maggy's answers make it such that it doesn't make sense for it to be her own siblings. Allow me to explain.

1)Cersei asks "When will I wed the prince?"

The woman answers "Never. You will wed the king."

The first part is a direct answer to her question. The second part gives more information relating directly to the initial question

2) Cersei asks “I will be queen, though?

The woman answers “Aye. Queen you shall be…until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Once again, the first part is a direct answer, with the latter expounding on the question that was asked. It is not related tangentially, it is a clarification. “You will be queen, BUT it won't last.”

3) Cersei asks “Will the king and I have children?”

The woman answers, “Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Once again, the first part is the yes or no answer that Cersei wants. But the second part, following the pattern, must be clarifying information related to the original question. This means that a sudden jump from talking about Cersei’s children to talking about how Cersei’s brother will kill her doesn’t make sense. Maggy answers the question that was asked and gives extra information related directly to that question. The valonqar does not refer to Jaime or Tyrion. It is someone else entirely. There’s a break between the sentence that starts “oh, aye. Six-and-ten. . “ and the one that starts “Gold shall be their crowns. . .” so it’s not completely clear to the reader that there is no pause in Maggy’s speech, but I think that there was no significant pause to indicate a change of topic when the memory actually happened. That short break is only written to show Cersei reacting to the answer. The valonqar is NOT Jaime but it’s also not Tyrion. I think it is one of the children, since her initial question was about the children.

An interesting side note about the younger and more beautiful queen…I think it’s possible it already happened. I think the younger and more beautiful queen could Lyanna. She was named Queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar, was she not? And wasn’t the whole war thing started largely because Rhaegar loved Lyanna? Well Rhaegar died and Cersei entered a loveless marriage with Robert. One could argue that she certainly did take everything she held dear at the point when the prophecy was made.

I think you are right. The Valonqar is going to be one of Cersei's children. It would be a good twist and very unexpected if it was Tommen.

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You're right. I never noticed, but the "gold will be their shrouds" could be a separate comment by Maegi cryptically saying that her children will die someday (and gold is also a Lannister colour). Cersei's tears could be for any reason....like seeing her whole family leave/disown her....especially Jaime and Tommen. It is very cleaver writing if they are all separate thoughts that really should not be linked at all.

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Its going to be Jaime, know why? Because Cersei thinks the valonquar is Tyrion.

Just like she thinks Margaery Tyrell is the more beautiful queen when its probably Daenerys.

The point is, we the readers know who the valonquar is but Cersei doesn't.

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You're right. I never noticed, but the "gold will be their shrouds" could be a separate comment by Maegi cryptically saying that her children will die someday (and gold is also a Lannister colour). Cersei's tears could be for any reason....like seeing her whole family leave/disown her....especially Jaime and Tommen. It is very cleaver writing if they are all separate thoughts that really should not be linked at all.

I agree it seemed it was assumed that her children would die before her, but I don't think the quote necessarily means that. It could be interpreted is that none of her children will die like Viserys in exile and unmourned. Though Crimson is the traditional Lannister colour, Tywin wears a gold cloak, Jamie has his golden armour and like the Baratheons are famous for their black hair, the Lannisters their gold.

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LOL weak argument. Jamie is a man and a man's hand can easily wrap around a woman's throat and crush it. Wow.

Then why does the Maegi use the plural "hands"? and the word "wrap"? It's such a clear imagery. Otherwise, wouldn't she have said "The Valonqar will choke the life from you", leaving it open to interpretation?

I feel that because the person was identified as the "valonqar", it has to be someone whose identity is defined by being the little brother of someone more infamous. Someone, for example, like Sandor Clegane, Tommen, or Kevan Lannister.

I am so sure that the valonqar is NOT Jamie Lannister that if I'm wrong, I will change my profile picture to that of a baboon for 4 months and you can all point and laugh at me.. :laugh:

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Having a golden hand gives him a number of hands in excess of one, again. If anything, the golden hand thing seems to me to make it more likely that Jaime's the one who'll be the Valonqar, not less. It's one thing that'll make Cersei even more comfortable around him, less likely to believe that he's the Valonqar. But boy won't she be shocked when he chokes her with two hands, one his own and one of gold.

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I am so sure that the valonqar is NOT Jamie Lannister that if I'm wrong, I will change my profile picture to that of a baboon for 4 months and you can all point and laugh at me.. :laugh:

If it helps I'll have to do the same. I personally think as Valarien words can be either gender, so it will be Arya who kills her. She needs to personally kill a few more people on her death list, personally.

Edit: I also used to have a crackpot that Edmure would strangle her based on Cat thinking she wanted to strangle Cersei and Edmure has been sent to the Rock.

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Having a golden hand gives him a number of hands in excess of one, again. If anything, the golden hand thing seems to me to make it more likely that Jaime's the one who'll be the Valonqar, not less. It's one thing that'll make Cersei even more comfortable around him, less likely to believe that he's the Valonqar. But boy won't she be shocked when he chokes her with two hands, one his own and one of gold.

I've considered that, but as the original post suggests, his hand is shaped half-closed to wrap around the stem of a wine glass. He wouldn't be able to wrap his hand around a neck, the most he'd be able to do with the hand is press it against her windpipe, which doesn't really fit with the Maegi's wording.

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I think arguing against Jaime being the valonqar based on just the gold hand is pretty weak. As others have said, he can have leverage with the gold one and do actual choking with the good one, or it could easily refer to the chain of office, as others have said. Maggy's prophecy is straightforward but still able to have multiple layers of meaning (gold crowns/gold Lannister hair, for instance). I don't think it necessitates Jaime having two intact human hands.

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I think arguing against Jaime being the valonqar based on just the gold hand is pretty weak. As others have said, he can have leverage with the gold one and do actual choking with the good one, or it could easily refer to the chain of office, as others have said. Maggy's prophecy is straightforward but still able to have multiple layers of meaning (gold crowns/gold Lannister hair, for instance). I don't think it necessitates Jaime having two intact human hands.

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree. Although I will allow for the possibility of using the chain of hands, such as in Shae's death although I'm loath to think that GRRM would use it twice. As you've stated, Maggy's prophecy is straightforward, and the combination of her usage of the plural "hands" with the word "wrapping", in my humble opinion, leaves no room for choking with one and using the other for leverage. But, as I've stated upthread, if I'm wrong, I will be more than happy to gracefully admit defeat and change my avatar to a baboon for four months. B)

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I'm not a fan of the massive amount of prophecies in the series, and I think in a way it would be much more satisfying if the valonqar thing didn't come to pass at all - it would mean Cersei's paranoia and self-destruction was for absolutely nothing, which is kind of fitting for her type of character, the person with a tendency to make their own problems out of nothing.

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I'm not sure if anyone has made another post about this, if you have, I apologize. I did search and didn't find anything specific, so I'm going to go ahead.

This seems really simple, maybe too simple, but I can't get past it at the moment.

Jaime cannot be the valonqar because he only has one hand. The golden hand cannot choke anyone because 1. its shaped half-closed for holding wine goblets, and 2. it can't produce pressure.

The prophecy clearly states that the valonqar will wraps his hands (plural) around her pale throat. Unless Jaime is regrowing a hand anytime soon, it's not going to happen.

So that's my take. What do you think? Too obvious?

That's totally my take. There are also several references to him not being able to use both hands for strangling - such as he would strangle someone with his remaining hand. Also he isnt going to kill Cersei, why would he? There are about 4.5 thousand other little brothers out there who are up for the job and more likely to get passionate enough to kill her. Jaime has lost his passion re: Cersei and he has no reason to kill her.

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