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Jaime *cannot* be the valonqar


Moon-Pale Maiden

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Its going to be Jaime, know why? Because Cersei thinks the valonquar is Tyrion.

Just like she thinks Margaery Tyrell is the more beautiful queen when its probably Daenerys.

The point is, we the readers know who the valonquar is but Cersei doesn't.

If we know how come we are debating it? Ditto the beautiful queen.

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well the fact that he is purposely not going to save her life, couldnt you infer that he would like to see her dead

No, he CANT help her. Not short term and not long term either. SHe's the one who sent him off to sort out the riverlands and his sword hand is inconveniently absent. Without battle by combat he cant help her because she is guilty. If he showed up he might even be called upon to testify against her.

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Imo, yes. At the risk of making a meta-argument, there is a beautiful tragedy (imo) about the the crushing inevitability of it being Jaime. In short, I really want it to be Jaime. Also, he actually has two hands it's just that one of them happens to be made of gold. IIRC the hand is shaped in such a way as to allow him to hold a goblet/cup, that's sounds like it would work as a means of strangulation as well.

Too obvious for this forum perhaps but GRRM isnt big on gigantic surprises out of the blue. Stuff makes sense in his worlds. Trying to force that golden hand into a beloved theory that must now be abandoned is just fantasy on the part of the reader. There is no reason to believe that the maegi's prediction is fudged in that one instance - and it is quite graphic and her other predictions are correct and blood magic is later confirmed as pretty darn accurate - and holding on to something that seemed likely before Jaime lost his hand is just a dysfunctional grief reaction at the loss of the theory. I suggest we move on. And if I am wrong I will do the baboon thing too. This is one of those things I am 100% sure of. It's not Jaime. We thought it was but then Hoat forced us off that path.

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Too obvious for this forum perhaps but GRRM isnt big on gigantic surprises out of the blue. Stuff makes sense in his worlds. Trying to force that golden hand into a beloved theory that must now be abandoned is just fantasy on the part of the reader. There is no reason to believe that the maegi's prediction is fudged in that one instance - and it is quite graphic and her other predictions are correct and blood magic is later confirmed as pretty darn accurate - and holding on to something that seemed likely before Jaime lost his hand is just a dysfunctional grief reaction at the loss of the theory. I suggest we move on. And if I am wrong I will do the baboon thing too. This is one of those things I am 100% sure of. It's not Jaime. We thought it was but then Hoat forced us off that path.

Lol... Thank you for being my baboon partner!! :cheers:

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If it helps I'll have to do the same. I personally think as Valarien words can be either gender, so it will be Arya who kills her. She needs to personally kill a few more people on her death list, personally.

Edit: I also used to have a crackpot that Edmure would strangle her based on Cat thinking she wanted to strangle Cersei and Edmure has been sent to the Rock.

Rapsie, I had no idea you felt this way! Arya has been my dark horse candidate for Cersei's valonqar for quite a while now. There's just something about the way Sandor says "the little sister" when he meets Arya in Beric's cave that stuck out for me and always had me wondering about this.
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I'd imagine that since the choking someone to death is failry up close and personal, that it could be someone that Cersei does not suspect and who's presence she is comfortable in. For this reason I'd go with Jaime.

I maintain it could be Loras. Not really his style though.

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Although Jaime is still in top spot this topic sort of reminds me of the RW - GRRM pretty much hinted that Rob was a goner before it happened, and the hints were there - sometimes simple phrases and sentences that went by so quickly when reading that most of us were really surprised when it happened. This could be another case of it, except we have the forum to hash it all out. Cersei thinking it is Tyrion makes me think that GRRM again is showing us that Cersei is the unreliable POV and continues to be consistently making bad judgement calls.

Not that I think this would happen (very crackpot) but don't forget Gendry - he's Robert's son, "little brother" to Mya Stone and is a Smith (known for having strong arm(s) and hands) and is a BWB Knight (he vowed to protect the weak/innocent) . He'd have a rather BIG motive too - Cersei tried to have him killed, and she succesfully plotted and killed King Bob his dad (not that he knows it - yet). If Jaime brings Gendry along with him, he may just get the opportunity. And he is one of the 16 children mentioned in Maggy's prophecy. (Plus he looks like a young Robert - could you imagine Cersei thinking Robert has come back from the dead to kill her? Priceless)

Wow there are too many little brothers to choose from.

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I think arguing against Jaime being the valonqar based on just the gold hand is pretty weak. As others have said, he can have leverage with the gold one and do actual choking with the good one, or it could easily refer to the chain of office, as others have said. Maggy's prophecy is straightforward but still able to have multiple layers of meaning (gold crowns/gold Lannister hair, for instance). I don't think it necessitates Jaime having two intact human hands.

There is actually a post in another thread that I liked. It says that because Jaime lost his hand it may imply that he could be the valonqar.

Didn't Cersei say he came into the world holding on to her foot? Well, he's lost that hand now, didn't he?

Might not be much to see there, but I thought it was a nice touch on Martin's part.

So instead of him holding on to her or following her, he is free to do what he pleases.

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I've considered that, but as the original post suggests, his hand is shaped half-closed to wrap around the stem of a wine glass. He wouldn't be able to wrap his hand around a neck, the most he'd be able to do with the hand is press it against her windpipe, which doesn't really fit with the Maegi's wording.

He could easily get another hand in a different shape. It's not as if that hand is welded to him. He could easily take it off and switch it out for another.

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This! Cersei is quite obsessed with fire and pretty much every book has descriptions of her green eyes shining like fire (wildfire is green, right?).

Jamie's gold hand is shaped to hold a cup. A useful shape if you're trying to choke someone.

I also think he will blame her for the death of their children. I know he's used a pretty obscene statement to describe his kids in the past. I believe that he said that they were nothing more to him than a squirt in Cersei's um... well you know. However he's the guy who runs out to comfort Tommen at the sept. I think he'll developed latent feelings of love for his kids and blame Cersei's political stupidity for their deaths. He might also publicly confess to being their father in a moment of overwhelming emotion, a la Scarlet Letter

Cunt. A squirt in Cersei's cunt. Cunt is the word you are looking for

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Not sure how it could possibly work out logistically, but I have this image in my head of Cersei being at Casterly Rock with both her kids when Tyrion and the Second Sons/other sellswords/maybe a dragon too are attacking it. In a fit of panic and rage, Cersei poisons Tommen and Myrcella, her justification being that she doesn't want Tyrion to get to them. Enter Jamie (dunno what hes doing there, I didnt say it was a good theory lol), he sees this and strangles Cersei.

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This still leaves the problem of applying pressure.

The golden hand presses down on her throat and he squeezes with the other hand. Honestly, depending on the shape of the golden hand, that hand alone would probably be enough to choke the life out of her if he has something to press her against. He wouldn't even need his real hand, which would just be icing on the cake. After all, when I was in middle school my shop teacher, an ex-marine, very nearly chocked me with just a flex of his muscle when he put me in a headlock. He didn't need to wrap his hands around my throat (FYI: It was only for a second. He wasn't seriously choking the life out of me in class. He bet us he could choke someone just from flexing, I called him on it, and he proved me wrong). The basic principle is this: something presses against the front of your throat and, when you're unable to move back from that something which is applying pressure to the front of your throat, you start choking. You don't need to wrap a hand around someone's throat if you can press something against their throat and they're against something else (like a wall or a bed) who prevents them from moving back, and they're otherwise unable to relieve the pressure being applied against their throat (I.E. Cersei's nowhere near strong enough to force Jaime's arm away if he decides to pin her down on a bed and crush her throat with his golden hand).

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He could easily get another hand in a different shape. It's not as if that hand is welded to him. He could easily take it off and switch it out for another.

WHich is why I dont understand why he just doesnt get a pointy weapon - or at least a fork - for it.

No matter what it is it wont WRAP unless there is some Westerosi or Essos material I am not yet aware of. Also he would have to regain his passion. Right now he seems to be too busy with his own missions.

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That's totally my take. There are also several references to him not being able to use both hands for strangling - such as he would strangle someone with his remaining hand. Also he isnt going to kill Cersei, why would he? There are about 4.5 thousand other little brothers out there who are up for the job and more likely to get passionate enough to kill her. Jaime has lost his passion re: Cersei and he has no reason to kill her.

It's funny cos I thought that Jaime still has that passion for her, but in a "I hate her/I love her" kinda way. As late as ADWD, he talks about cutting out her tongue, but would miss it if he did, and calls her a whore a couple of times, but in an immature, spiteful way that tells you that he's just not over her. I can see him, when they reunite, killing her out of the devastating sense of betrayal he feels over her infidelity. It's already become a refrain in his head ("Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know..."), an obsession, and I can see it going over the brink at some point.

I'm all for Jaime being the valonqar, although it does seem a bit predictable and too "neat" of a way to fulfill the prophecy. But I do see this as being the only end fitting for their narrative. The only question for me is what is the motivating factor, and will Jaime perish as well afterwards?

I personally hope Cersei defies, somehow, the prophecy and lives beyond the end of the series as that would make a great, unpredictable outcome, but only if she actually starts wielding whatever power she has for some form of good, rather than purely for the pursuit of power.

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