R+L=J v.45

[FrozenFire3]

This is a poor analogy. Jaime and Cersei are openly stated to be suspects in Jon Arryn's murder. Their analogs in the arguments over Jon's parentage would be Ashara, Wylla, and the fisherman's daughter, not Rhaegar and Lyanna. And by your own logic, we can expect that George will veer away from the options that are openly stated in the books, and go for something that is only hinted at, i.e. R+L=J.

Ned mentions a woman named Wylla who is said to be Jon's mother. Edric mentions a woman named Wylla who is said to be Jon's mother. Yes, it is such a mystery why people would think they're the same person. :rolleyes:

Where is the freaking like button when you need it? :P

[Ruby Chevrolet]

What how is it a big coincidence? It's pretty simple Ned and Wylla agree to make up the cover story that she's Jon's mother, they then tell house Dayne about it, and when Robert asks Ned the name of Jon's mother Ned simply gives him Wylla's name like Ned and Wylla would have previously agreed on when they decided to make a cover story so what's so coincidental about that? Once again you're tying ridiculously hard to create something out of absolutely nothing. The fact that you're inerpreting two ppl saying that Wylla is Jon's mother as this somehow being a clue that Wylla is two different people just shows how much you're tying to squeeze reasoning into this theory and i'm sorry but it's not working....

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne are talking about two different women. I am saying they are talking about the same woman. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence that there are two Wyllas in the mix.

Then we have to figure out where she is from. I see three possibilities. One is that she is from Dorne and Eddard met her for the first time at the end of the war. I don't think he would use her as the cover story for Jon's mother if that was the case. The second is that she was with Lyanna when Rhaegar took her (or that Rhaegar procured her from somewhere when he planned to take Lyanna) and that she traveled to Dorne with them. The third is that Eddard found her somewhere (for example, in a fishing boat between the Fingers and White Harbor) and either took her or sent her to Dorne.

The only evidence I can think of supporting the idea she was from Dorne is that, more than 15 years after the events in question, Edric Dayne said she had served the Daynes for years. The evidence she is from somewhere else is that Eddard and Edric both say Eddard got her pregnant when he was probably nowhere near Dorne, and the fisherman's daughter was from an area where we know the name Wylla is used.

Neither is conclusive but the theory that Wylla started out as the fisherman's daughter is as good as or better than the Wylla is from Dorne theory (regardless of whether you believe she is Jon's mother or not).

[danm_999]

The evidence she is from somewhere else is that Eddard and Edric both say Eddard got her pregnant when he was probably nowhere near Dorne, and the fisherman's daughter was from an area where we know the name Wylla is used.

The fisherman's daughter was from the Fingers though, where there's no indication the name Wylla is used.

[lcd52]

I don't get this though. The fisherman and his daughter were from the Fingers. The Manderly's are from the North, by way of the Mander, in the Reach.

Not to mention there appears to be no regional exclusively with other Manderly names; there are non-Manderly Wyman's (Wyman Webber) and non-Manderly Wendel's (Wendel Frey).

From ADWD: Weren't the Manderlys a house from the Reach? They fled the Field of Fire and were taken in by the Starks?

Wouldn't their ancestral names have originated in the Reach and possibly the Marches? Down Dorne way?

[Kasporio]

Cultures in Westeros intermingled in thousands years so i doubt a first name could be bound to a specific region. There was Theon Stark for example. Among noble houses, some could choose to give names they deem "traditional". As such, many Lannisters have a first name begining with "Ty". Or it could be an attempt to please the lord by giving children his name. That's why there's some Ty into the lannister family and almost 70% frey are named like the Weasel lord.

ImHO it seems Eddard blurred on purpose the origins of his bastard son.

He told to Cat "he's of my blood" or something like that, and only that, cause he knew she would not dig more. If Jon is his nephew, he didn't told Cat to protect Jon.

He let Robert think he had Jon with a commonner nammed Wylla, because if robert had knew Jon was Rhaegar's son, and potentially the rightful heir of the 7K, he had try to kill Jon.

So Ned didn't contradict the theories about his affair with Ashara Dayne, but it's more likely she was impregnated by Brandon. And Selmy doesn't believe Ned was implied either.

For the Wylla living in Starfall, it makes sense she was the wetnurse of JS since TOJ was in dornish mountains and Ned move to starfall to bring back Dawn. Edric Dayne couldn't know the whole truth since he wasn't born. Only Lady Allyria and Wylla could tell the truth.

Which makes the theory L+R=J plausible, is that Ned selflessy tainted his reputation and honor, something highly valuable to him, to protect his sister's son. His own wie was resentful because of this. And if Jon was a lowborn bastard, Ned could have let him in the care of a foster family. He didn't, he raised the child as a future lord, maybe to prepare him to kingship.

He didn't prevent Jon to join the watch, maybe to protect him further if someone was suspecting Jon's real parentage.

[MtnLion]

I believe this is what Ruby Chevrolet refers to :

“ If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man. “

The whole chat can be found here : http://web.archive.o...gerrmartin.html (from The Citadel)

He is actually speaking about origins, whether a house descends from the First Men or the Andals or Valyria, nothing about first names.

That is where it becomes misleading, because we only see the "ae" in the first names of Targaryens.

[Ygrain]

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne are talking about two different women. I am saying they are talking about the same woman. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence that there are two Wyllas in the mix.

Then we have to figure out where she is from. I see three possibilities. One is that she is from Dorne and Eddard met her for the first time at the end of the war. I don't think he would use her as the cover story for Jon's mother if that was the case. The second is that she was with Lyanna when Rhaegar took her (or that Rhaegar procured her from somewhere when he planned to take Lyanna) and that she traveled to Dorne with them. The third is that Eddard found her somewhere (for example, in a fishing boat between the Fingers and White Harbor) and either took her or sent her to Dorne.

The only evidence I can think of supporting the idea she was from Dorne is that, more than 15 years after the events in question, Edric Dayne said she had served the Daynes for years. The evidence she is from somewhere else is that Eddard and Edric both say Eddard got her pregnant when he was probably nowhere near Dorne, and the fisherman's daughter was from an area where we know the name Wylla is used.

Neither is conclusive but the theory that Wylla started out as the fisherman's daughter is as good as or better than the Wylla is from Dorne theory (regardless of whether you believe she is Jon's mother or not).

That is nonsense, and it starts right from the sentence that I bolded higher above. If Ned met Wylla at the end of the war at ToJ, she was already on the secret, anyway. It makes much better sense to cooperate with someone already involved than involving a northern fishergirl who either travelled along invisible or was sent to be taken care of by the family of the lady Ned wooed and who otherwise have no ties to him.

[MtnLion]

The real issue with the "fisherman's daughter" lies with timing. Some hints suggest that Jon Arryn and Ned married the Tully girls after the Battle of the Bells. Ned certainly would have spent a month or longer gathering his banners before marching to Stoney Sept to that battle, and that march is probably much more than a month. So, "fisherman's daughter" has been pregnant for 3 or so months, yet delivers Jon convincingly young enough to pass for younger than Robb, and Ned did not dishonor himself and Catelyn.

[Zupoleon]

That is nonsense, and it starts right from the sentence that I bolded higher above. If Ned met Wylla at the end of the war at ToJ, she was already on the secret, anyway. It makes much better sense to cooperate with someone already involved than involving a northern fishergirl who either travelled along invisible or was sent to be taken care of by the family of the lady Ned wooed and who otherwise have no ties to him.

Exactly. It is much more reasonable to have Wylla come from Dorne (Starfall specifically) than as a fisherman's daughter from up North. In fact, the text supports it, as "THEY found Ned" after Lyanna had died. Lyanna almost certainly had a midwife / wet-nurse present.

[Ser Creighton]

What how is it a big coincidence? It's pretty simple Ned and Wylla agree to make up the cover story that she's Jon's mother, they then tell house Dayne about it, and when Robert asks Ned the name of Jon's mother Ned simply gives him Wylla's name like Ned and Wylla would have previously agreed on when they decided to make a cover story so what's so coincidental about that? Once again you're tying ridiculously hard to create something out of absolutely nothing. The fact that you're inerpreting two ppl saying that Wylla is Jon's mother as this somehow being a clue that Wylla is two different people just shows how much you're tying to squeeze reasoning into this theory and i'm sorry but it's not working....

Just one thing to clearify, I think House Dayne is in on that cover up. Allyria told Edric that Ashara killed herself because Ned broke her heart. I am hard pressed to imagine any house would keep the mistress of the man who broke their daughters heart which led to her killing herself. It's also an easy enough rumor for house Dayne to squash, which they do not. In fact it is told to their lord suggesting they are actively allowing it to be spread where as Ned crushed any rumor about Ashara but he himself spread used Wylla's name. So it's not just Wylla and Ned to an extent spreading the rumor it's house Dayne as well. It suggests house Dayne also knows who Jons mother is. If Jon came from the Tower of Joy I don't think anyone at house Dayne would have been stupid enough to think Ned road from KL with a new born baby. My guess in the case of R+L=J is that Arthur Dayne died with honor and probably tried to redeem himself via protecting Jon through his house.

All in all though House Dayne has a very strange relationship with Eddard where nothing seems to quite add up where they are concerned. It's hard for me to find a good reason for them not to hate Ned. Yet they seem rather okay with the guy. Can't exactly put my finger on it, but dead daughter+dead son somehow equals protect Jon and Ned.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne are talking about two different women. I am saying they are talking about the same woman. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence that there are two Wyllas in the mix.

Then we have to figure out where she is from. I see three possibilities. One is that she is from Dorne and Eddard met her for the first time at the end of the war. I don't think he would use her as the cover story for Jon's mother if that was the case. The second is that she was with Lyanna when Rhaegar took her (or that Rhaegar procured her from somewhere when he planned to take Lyanna) and that she traveled to Dorne with them. The third is that Eddard found her somewhere (for example, in a fishing boat between the Fingers and White Harbor) and either took her or sent her to Dorne.

The only evidence I can think of supporting the idea she was from Dorne is that, more than 15 years after the events in question, Edric Dayne said she had served the Daynes for years. The evidence she is from somewhere else is that Eddard and Edric both say Eddard got her pregnant when he was probably nowhere near Dorne, and the fisherman's daughter was from an area where we know the name Wylla is used.

Neither is conclusive but the theory that Wylla started out as the fisherman's daughter is as good as or better than the Wylla is from Dorne theory (regardless of whether you believe she is Jon's mother or not).

Or more simply than having to explain this convoluted she was here and then she was there and couldn't have been in Dorne when Ned impregnated her, is that Ned did not impregnate ANYONE but Catelyn during the war.

[Jon Icefyre]

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne are talking about two different women. I am saying they are talking about the same woman. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence that there are two Wyllas in the mix.

Then we have to figure out where she is from. I see three possibilities. One is that she is from Dorne and Eddard met her for the first time at the end of the war. I don't think he would use her as the cover story for Jon's mother if that was the case. The second is that she was with Lyanna when Rhaegar took her (or that Rhaegar procured her from somewhere when he planned to take Lyanna) and that she traveled to Dorne with them. The third is that Eddard found her somewhere (for example, in a fishing boat between the Fingers and White Harbor) and either took her or sent her to Dorne.

The only evidence I can think of supporting the idea she was from Dorne is that, more than 15 years after the events in question, Edric Dayne said she had served the Daynes for years. The evidence she is from somewhere else is that Eddard and Edric both say Eddard got her pregnant when he was probably nowhere near Dorne, and the fisherman's daughter was from an area where we know the name Wylla is used.

Neither is conclusive but the theory that Wylla started out as the fisherman's daughter is as good as or better than the Wylla is from Dorne theory (regardless of whether you believe she is Jon's mother or not).

Smh you're hopeless there's really no point in continuing to argue with someone that is as delusionally attached to a purely speculative theory as yourself at this point. Just know this, as you can tell from the comments after comments on here of ppl telling you how wrong you are you've probably guessed by now that no one is buyin you're bs cop out theory or you're bs reasonings for it so good luck with that. You keep trying to use her name as an excuse for you're reasoning but as it's been mentioned time in and time out there are multiple places in the realm that use names that start with "Wy" so Wylla's first name doesn't validate where she is or isn't from. You still haven't answered why House Dayne would do Ned, the man that not only killed Arthur Dayne, but also might have very well caused Ashara's suicide, a favor as huge as taking in his baby mamma who they've never even met before and is as you supposedly say isn't even from Dorne? What could possibly compel them to do Ned this huge favor answer that? It makes a lot more sense that she was already in service to House Dayne before she'd even met Ned which would explain House Dayne's relationship with her and why House Dayne might be more sympathetic to Ned's situation, so again you're reasoning that there's more evidence that Wylla is the fisherman's daughter is straight bullshit.

You say there's more evidence that she's the fisherman's daughter because you want there to be in order to prove your speculative theory right, but in reality there's nothing to be found for this theory it's that simple. As dragontamer said, you have this consistantly horrible habbit of severely stretching the truth to further support you're own speculative theories and it's safe to say most of the ppl on this thread are beyond annoyed of it. Just accept that this theory is a lost cause and move on.....

[Corvo Attano]

Who Jon's parents are is irrelevant now. He joined the watch. Once you take the black, the other family you have are your brothers on the wall.

[Greenfyre]

I should say that I am not a R+L=J supporter myself but I respect the theory... I have the feeling that sometimes while debating you stretch your arguments too much to support your case.

Wow, I'm not alone! I might have written that myself.

[GoldenVale]

I just just told you there was a Frey named Rhaegar and his father's name was Aenys Frey and there's plenty of other non Targs in Westeros past and present that have/had the "ae" in their names like Daegon Shepherd, Daemon Sand, Daemon Velaryon, Aegon Frey, Aemon Constayne, Aemon Estermont, Baelor Blacktyde, Baelor Hightower, among many others, hell there's even a Viserys Plumm(no ae but still Targ sounding). So once again i'm not seeing any real validation that Wylla's first name alone indicates that she's not from Dorne.....

While it's true that last names are generally more important in identifying where some is from I think first names can too.

All those people you mentioned were deliberately named after the famous Targs who had those names.You mentioned Rhaegar Frey. IIRC the chapter that features him it is mentioned (for a humorous effect) that it was ridiculous such that such a noxious character was named after Rhaegar Targaryen. So that being said can't we assume that certain geographies have more common names than others? All the "ae" names are only referred to as "Targ" names because those names probably weren't common in Westeros but maybe were in Valyria. But at the end of the day all those name in Westeros are distinctly Targ.

And sure the same names pop all over. But hear me out:

Names like Robb, Bran, Benjen etc seem to appear more in the North than anywhere else. And also names in the North seem to be shorter and simpler than the southern names. Just Robb instead of the more standard Robert.

The Lannister's have a trend: Tytos, Tywin, Tyrion, Tyrek, Tygett.

In the Iron Islands: Names that end in “–on” appear frequently and not just in the Greyjoy’s.

And where you do see the same names sometimes there are differences in spelling. Edric in the southern lands becomes Edrick in the North.

Not saying this proves anything I just think the name thing shouldn’t be dismissed straight away.

[MtnLion]

GoldenVale, the quote was:

The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree.

Thus, we are not talking about Targaryens, but Valyrians. Notice that? Sometimes we read what we want to read.

ETA: Don't get me started on the -on (jon, Brandon, Rickon, Tyrion, . . .)

[The guy from the Vale]

Just so nobody misses it, Greenfyre has put his theory online. Here's the thread to discuss it on this forum.

[Jon Icefyre]

Just so nobody misses it, Greenfyre has put his theory online. Here's the thread to discuss it on this forum.

Hell yeah! Good work Greenfyre can't wait to read it!

[GoldenVale]

Thus, we are not talking about Targaryens, but Valyrians. Notice that? Sometimes we read what we want to read.

ETA: Don't get me started on the -on (jon, Brandon, Rickon, Tyrion, . . .)

I did indeed concede that the "ae" was common in Valyria. I was just saying that the names only stand out as Targaryen because when the Targs came over those names weren't common in Westeros. There weren't any Daemon's or Aegon's in Westeros before the Targ invasion. And I think it's safe to say the Targ dynasty would be heavy enough influence on those in Westeros to refer to those names as "Targaryen" and not "Valyrian" as they perhaps should have.

[Jon Icefyre]

I did indeed concede that the "ae" was common in Valyria. I was just saying that the names only stand out as Targaryen because when the Targs came over those names weren't common in Westeros. There weren't any Daemon's or Aegon's in Westeros before the Targ invasion. And I think it's safe to say the Targ dynasty would be heavy enough influence on those in Westeros to refer to those names as "Targaryen" and not "Valyrian" as they perhaps should have.

Are you really still trying to argue this ridiculous theory? As I said before there's a Frey named Aenys for godsake and the Frey towers are not in KL/the crownlands are they? But based on you're definition Aenys must be a Targ or someone from KL to have "ae" in his name when in reality he's just a Frey. People have the same names all over, perhaps the "ae" was more distinctive immediately after Aegon's landing but after centuries of having the Targs around ppl started to use their customary first names as their own so by the time of the rebellion ppl from all over the realm had names with "ae" in them infact I gave you several names of non-Targs that had/have "ae" in their names in my earlier posts.

I already addressed this in the post I made above. Of course people were obviously naming their children after Targs that's not the point. The point is they had names with the Targ/Valyrian "ae" in them and there were plenty of non-Targs around the realm that did. Why their parents named them what they did is irrelevant the point is the names had "ae" regardless. So if you're in the Iron Islands and you meet someone with non-Targ/Valyrian features and they have a name like Baelor sure your gonna think that's a Valyrian name, sure you might think their parents named them after the Targs, but you're not just gonna assume the person is Valyrian or that they're a Targ from KL/The Crownlands simply because they have a Targ sounding first name centuries after the Targs have landed in Westeros and that's my whole point. No one is gonna assume where someone is from solely based on their first name alone. If you add in things like surname, appearance, personality, or wealth to go along with the first name then maybe ya. But you're not gonna make that assumption in Westeros based off of nothing but the first name.