R+L=J v.45

[MtnLion]

. . . But you're not gonna make that assumption in Westeros based off of nothing but the first name.

:agree:

[danm_999]

From ADWD: Weren't the Manderlys a house from the Reach? They fled the Field of Fire and were taken in by the Starks?

Wouldn't their ancestral names have originated in the Reach and possibly the Marches? Down Dorne way?

The Manderly's were from the Mander, which isn't anywhere near the Dornish Marches.

[danm_999]

And sure the same names pop all over. But hear me out:

Names like Robb, Bran, Benjen etc seem to appear more in the North than anywhere else. And also names in the North seem to be shorter and simpler than the southern names. Just Robb instead of the more standard Robert.

I never got the impression shortening of names was unique to the North. They shorten Eddard to Ned, but in the Dornish reaches they also shorten Edrick to Ned. Sometimes they shorten Brandon to Bran (our greenseer) and sometimes they just don't (Brandon who Aerys burnt). I suspect it was more to distinguish them than to follow a hard and fast tradition. They also miss lots of obvious opportunities elsewhere; Rickon isn't shortened to Rick, for example, because there isn't another to confuse him with.

And the examples of name shortening in the South abound. Catelyn is called Cat by her family. Eddison is shortened to Edd. Samwell is shortened to Sam. Genna calls Tygett "Tyg". People assume Dunk is short for Duncan, Joffrey gets called Joff, etc.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

What I want to know is, if Lyanna objected to marrying Robert because he would sleep around after marriage and his nature wouldn't change, why would she suddenly decide to run off with a married man? Are we supposed to believe that a wild wolf Stark girl would accept that because some Targaeryans a hundred years ago had more than one wife, it was fine for her to marry Rhaegar? While Rhaegar might be able to convince himself of that, I have a hard time believing that a northern girl who objected to the more normal practice of a husband having sex outside of marriage would suddenly have no objections to polygamy.

[The guy from the Vale]

There's a difference between being married to a serial adulterer you don't love and being married in a legal polygamous marriage to a man you love who has another marriage that's purely political and won't result in any affection or sex, as sex is forbidden for one of the two and the two don't love each other.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

There's a difference between being married to a serial adulterer you don't love and being married in a legal polygamous marriage to a man you love who has another marriage that's purely political and won't result in any affection or sex, as sex is forbidden for one of the two and the two don't love each other.

Must have happened at least twice though. :lol:

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, but after the second time Elia was told she could bear no more children, so sex for procreative purposes is out of the window.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

So the Faith of the Seven is that strict? Where does it say that?

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Yes, but after the second time Elia was told she could bear no more children, so sex for procreative purposes is out of the window.

In a world where "moon tea" is readily available, I don't think they would really worry over much about the risk of pregnancy. I'm sure a prince knows how to ensure a girl doesn't get pregnant.

Also, is there something in the books that says the marriage is purely political and without love? I never got that impression, except of course for him naming Lyanna Queen of Love & Beauty. Still, the House of the Undying Vision seemed to imply at least a mutual affection.

[Dragonfish]

Also, is there something in the books that says the marriage is purely political and without love? I never got that impression, except of course for him naming Lyanna Queen of Love & Beauty. Still, the House of the Undying Vision seemed to imply at least a mutual affection.

Dany asks Barristan if Rhaegar loved Elia. He hesitates, then replies that he was "fond" of her. Dany thinks to herself that she understands what "fond of" means in this instance. This is a pretty clear indication that their marriage was loveless, though not of the Robert/Cersei variety.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Dany asks Barristan if Rhaegar loved Elia. He hesitates, then replies that he was "fond" of her. Dany thinks to herself that she understands what "fond of" means in this instance. This is a pretty clear indication that their marriage was loveless, though not of the Robert/Cersei variety.

Ah ok, was that in SoS or ADWD? I'm still not sure it is that easy though, as being a second wife at this point in history is still unusual even for a Targaeryan, and would be very foreign to a northerner.

[The guy from the Vale]

In a world where "moon tea" is readily available, I don't think they would really worry over much about the risk of pregnancy. I'm sure a prince knows how to ensure a girl doesn't get pregnant.

Also, is there something in the books that says the marriage is purely political and without love? I never got that impression, except of course for him naming Lyanna Queen of Love & Beauty. Still, the House of the Undying Vision seemed to imply at least a mutual affection.

But they didn't love each other, as evidenced by Barristan calling their relationship "fond", which Dany interprets correctly as loveless.

ETA: It's in ADWD, before Dany marries Hizdahr.

[Dragonfish]

Ah ok, was that in SoS or ADWD?

It's in Dance.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

The real issue with the "fisherman's daughter" lies with timing. Some hints suggest that Jon Arryn and Ned married the Tully girls after the Battle of the Bells. Ned certainly would have spent a month or longer gathering his banners before marching to Stoney Sept to that battle, and that march is probably much more than a month. So, "fisherman's daughter" has been pregnant for 3 or so months, yet delivers Jon convincingly young enough to pass for younger than Robb, and Ned did not dishonor himself and Catelyn.

This is only a problem if the fisherman's daughter got pregnant when she first met Eddard. If she traveled with him the way Shae traveled with Tyrion, the pregnancy probably came some weeks or months after they first met.

[danm_999]

This is only a problem if the fisherman's daughter got pregnant when she first met Eddard. If she traveled with him the way Shae traveled with Tyrion, the pregnancy probably came some weeks or months after they first met.

But Lord Godric tells Davos that Ned left the fisherman's daughter on the Sisters.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

But Lord Godric tells Davos that Ned left the fisherman's daughter on the Sisters.

That is one possible (and natural) reading of what Lord Godric said. I suggested an alternative reading. Specifically, Godric says Eddard left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver (or something very close to that). He does not say where or when Eddard left her. This leaves open the possibility of something longer than a one night stand.

I then went on to suggest that if this is true, and if you believe Eddard's statement that he had a bastard with a common woman named Wylla, the fisherman's daughter and Wylla could be the same person.

Finally, I suggested Wylla may be a name that is common around the Fingers-Sisters-White Harbor bay, where the fisherman plies his trade, because there is a Wylla Manderly in White Harbor.

As I have said elsewhere, this is a fun theory. It can't be proved, and it can't be disproved. But it does demonstrate that the fisherman's daughter can't be ruled out as a possible mother for Jon Snow simply based on timing problems.

[danm_999]

That is one possible (and natural) reading of what Lord Godric said. I am suggesting an alternative reading. Specifically, Godric says Eddard left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver (or something very close to that). He does not say where or when Eddard left her. This leaves open the possibility of something longer than a one night stand.

Here's the problem with this reading though; if Ned abandoned her later during Robert's Rebellion in the Crownlands/Stormlands/Dorne/where-ever, how on earth would Lord Godric know that fact, and specifically, how would he know the amount Ned eventually paid her at the end of the day? The only way he could have gotten those two pieces of information is if they happened when they visited Sweetsister.

The woman certainly wouldn't have returned to Sweetsister after all was said and done; she lived on the Fingers. And he wouldn't have heard it through the Westerosi grapevine; from Winterfell to King's Landing, from Cersei to Harwin and Catelyn no one had heard talk of this fisherman's daughter as a camp follower, or a bag of silver as payment; the overwhelming scuttlebutt was Ashara Dayne.

So how would he know Ned hadn't, say, taken her into his household, or killed her, or done any other number of things? The only possibility is that this abandonment and payment happened on Sweetsister.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Here's the problem with this reading though; if Ned abandoned her later during Robert's Rebellion in the Crownlands/Stormlands/Dorne/where-ever, how on earth would Lord Godric know that fact, and specifically, how would he know the amount Ned eventually paid her at the end of the day? The only way he could have gotten those two pieces of information is if they happened when they visited Sweetsister.

The woman certainly wouldn't have returned to Sweetsister after all was said and done; she lived on the Fingers. And he wouldn't have heard it through the Westerosi grapevine; from Winterfell to King's Landing, from Cersei to Harwin and Catelyn no one had heard talk of this fisherman's daughter as a camp follower, or a bag of silver as payment; the overwhelming scuttlebutt was Ashara Dayne.

So how would he know Ned hadn't, say, taken her into his household, or killed her, or done any other number of things? The only possibility is that this abandonment and payment happened on Sweetsister.

The most likely scenario is that she sent word back to her mother and word spread through the fishing community around the bay.

[danm_999]

The most likely scenario is that she sent word back to her mother and word spread through the fishing community around the bay.

Wait; how do we know she has a mother who lives?

And how would she send word? I'm guessing a fisherman's daughter and a fisherman's wife aren't going to be literate. She can't exactly ask Ned to send a letter.

And if she did somehow get the message off, why did the story only spread to Sweetsister and nowhere else? Wouldn't it have spread to White Harbour and King's Landing? Wouldn't Catelyn and Cersei know this rumour?

And why is she mentioning how much she got paid, or that she's having a bastard? I can understand wanting to tell her mother she's safe, but what possible reason would she or the mother advertise this other information? Seems like a huge liability; especially since there's a civil war brewing and her Lord Paramount's wife is sister to the cuckolded Catelyn.

So if this is the 'most likely' scenario, I have to say that this line of exploration is pretty fruitless.

[Alia of the knife]

Jon Icefyre, I will look for the quote. I believe he talked about surnames but also mentioned the Targaryen "ae", which only appears in first names.

UVA, when I read A Game of Thrones, I had two theories that are relevant here. First, Jaime Lannister killed Jon Arryn. Second, Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon Snow's parents.

The Petyr/Lysa revelation in A Storm of Swords seemed cheap because it was out of the blue. But if you look back, the clues were there all along.

It is the same with the Barristan chapter about Ashara in A Dance With Dragons. The Rhaegar/Lyanna story seems right the first time through but actually he has been telling us it was Eddard/Ashara all along. (Or, less likely, that it was Wylla all along.)

As for the Targaryens, they are still a huge influence even if Jon is not one of them. But as I said before, I think Daenerys'' story will converge eventually with Jon's and that will be the song of ice and fire (not ice and fire and more fire).

Okay, let me ask you this then within the context of the theory, (and I'm not being smarmy, but sincere), if Jon ends up beings Ned and Asharas, don't you still think there is a child of Rhaegar and Lyannas out there, given the way the Author had her die, which was in her bed of blood, a common way he refers to childbirth?

If you've already stated the belief that there is, forgive me, but I've haven't been on here lately.