I hate myself for this

[Where Boars Glow]

I hate that there are so many far fetched theories about secret Targaryens.

I have especially always hated _{all theories involving Lannisters being secret Targs. However.}

_{I was rereading AFFC last night and read through the chapter where Jamie is having a dream while in Riverrun. He sees a woman dressed as a silent sister. This is Obviously Joanna. She says}

_PARAPHRASING

_{Joanna: you don’t recognize me?}

_{...perhaps you will one day forget your father.}

_{Jamie :this is just a dream.}

_{Joanna: Then why do you only have one hand?}

_{Jamie notices this is true and acknowledges in his dreams he always has both hands.}

_{Joanna: Men always dream of what they want most but are denied. Tywin for example always wanted a son who was a great knight...and a daughter who would be queen.}

_{Jamie: But i am in the Kings Guard and Cersi is the queen?}

_{Joanna looks away as a tear rolls down her cheek.}

_{God I HATE THIS......BUT KING ARYES IS JAMIE AND CERSIS FATHER!}

_{DAMN IT!}

_FUK!

[jon stark I]

Another Aerys raped Joanna thread.I mean is there anyone that didn't got raped by Aerys?There is also Lyanna and Ashara theories.But this one feels real to me.Because why would she cry?

[Where Boars Glow]

I have shrugged off the other evidence I have heard about this as laughable. The brother sister incest..blah blah.

That passage though of jamies dream in Riverrun....I want to but have a hard time denying the obvious forshadow.

[Profion]

I don´t like this theory either, but the references are there, could be red herring, with all "Tyrion is tywins son" and all, but... Not so sure...

[King Tyrion VIII]

I think we can agree on this:

It's either a red herring or Jamie and Cersei aren't Tywin's.

[Breido]

I thought this dream meant that Cersei and Jaime did become what Tywin wanted them to become, but not in the way Tywin wanted them to. What I mean is that he wanted Jaime to be the "Young Lion" instead he became the "Kingslayer", he wanted Cersei to truly be the "Light of the West" or whatever they called her, instead she became the "Bitch Queen".

[Brindled]

All the signs are there that Tywin may not be able to seed children, and that all his children are illegitimate heirs to Aerys. Only future books will dispel or manifest this to be so.

[Lord Flashheart]

I took this as His son is known as Kingslayer and has shit for honor also this is after Jamie and Tywin have a falling out before his death. His daughter the Queen is a brotherlover and an all around joke.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

It would also (in a way) explain Cersei's madness,

[bbstark]

Calm your horses, you can stop fighting with yourself :fencing:

This is what it means:

I thought this dream meant that Cersei and Jaime did become what Tywin wanted them to become, but not in the way Tywin wanted them to. What I mean is that he wanted Jaime to be the "Young Lion" instead he became the "Kingslayer", he wanted Cersei to truly be the "Light of the West" or whatever they called her, instead she became the "Bitch Queen".

they have both gotten the title: Knight and Queen, but neither has brought him the honor to the house that he expected.

Jaime was supposed to be a great knight, but not KG. Being in the KG he cannot inherit Casterly Rock, and from what I gather Tywin is not pleased. And Cersei produced Joffrey.... that's enough for a year of tears!!!

[Errant Bard]

Nah, what it means is that it's Jaime's regrets materializing, not a vision of truth from an external source (which source, anyway?)

[Juli Greyjoy]

I've always hated the 'Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs' theories as well, but on my reread I somewhere saw the phrase 'Mad King Joffrey'. Sound familiar? It made me think of Barristan's coin story about the Targaryens. While Jaime and Cersei are (well, mostly) sane, Joffrey's coin landed on the wrong side (if he is a Targaryen.) However, the theory is still crackpot to me.

[FittleLinger]

I've always hated the 'Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs' theories as well, but on my reread I somewhere saw the phrase 'Mad King Joffrey'. Sound familiar? It made me think of Barristan's coin story about the Targaryens. While Jaime and Cersei are (well, mostly) sane, Joffrey's coin landed on the wrong side (if he is a Targaryen.) However, the theory is still crackpot to me.

I think maybe Martin is playing the incest card here, not the Targaryen card.

[Lord of Cheese]

Calm your horses, you can stop fighting with yourself :fencing:

This is what it means:

they have both gotten the title: Knight and Queen, but neither has brought him the honor to the house that he expected.

Jaime was supposed to be a great knight, but not KG. Being in the KG he cannot inherit Casterly Rock, and from what I gather Tywin is not pleased. And Cersei produced Joffrey.... that's enough for a year of tears!!!

Yeah ditto this.

I really dont know how ppl can extract Aerys being their father from certain book passages. Ppl see what they want to see in the book.

Not every dream is a prophecy and not everyone is a secret <insert your favourite house name>.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yeah ditto this.

I really dont know how ppl can extract Aerys being their father from certain book passages. Ppl see what they want to see in the book.

Not every dream is a prophecy and not everyone is a secret <insert your favourite house name>.

Agreed. My take on all the passages that could possibly indicate that Jaime/Cersei are secret Targs is that they are meant as comparison to Aerys, not as evidence that he is father. Take for example when Cersei has the Tower of the Hand burned. Her internal monologue has thoughts to the extent of "the fire washed over her like a bath, cleansing her" etc., which is very Aerys like descriptions of what is happening while watching the fire. However, I do not take this as hinting that she is a child of Aerys, but rather that she is the new Mad King (well, Queen) and that it is ultimately foreshadowing that, just like with the first Mad King, Jaime will be the one to kill the new Mad Queen.

[Toccs]

I do admit it would be a cool irony if the children that made Tywin smile and that he heaped praise and ambition on turned out not to be his while the one child he hated was. It is also nice for a "X Lannister = Secret Targ" theory to keep the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic intact and I admit there is a lot of potential clues in the text (the one in OP being a strong one) that could point towards Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards.

However I just don't buy it, all of the pieces of evidence have much simpler and in many cases much more thematically logical conclusions to be drawn. Also I can not see the reason from a literary point of view for it to come up now, there's no way it could ever be proved or revealed and the three people most effected by it (Tywin, Aerys, Joanna) are all long dead.

[IRON BANK]

Calm your horses, you can stop fighting with yourself :fencing:

This is what it means:

they have both gotten the title: Knight and Queen, but neither has brought him the honor to the house that he expected.

Jaime was supposed to be a great knight, but not KG. Being in the KG he cannot inherit Casterly Rock, and from what I gather Tywin is not pleased. And Cersei produced Joffrey.... that's enough for a year of tears!!!

Very true I feel the dream meant that nothing really turned out the way Tywin wanted and that his mother would be sad about it if she was still alive. this in know way convinces me that those are Aery's Kids. They don't share any of his traits.

[TalalOfDorne]

I have to say I myself dont want this to come true at all, but I cant say that there is absolutely no hinting to it :frown5: .

[Where Boars Glow]

I thought this dream meant that Cersei and Jaime did become what Tywin wanted them to become, but not in the way Tywin wanted them to. What I mean is that he wanted Jaime to be the "Young Lion" instead he became the "Kingslayer", he wanted Cersei to truly be the "Light of the West" or whatever they called her, instead she became the "Bitch Queen".

I took it as.....Yes....you did become those things......but I said Tywin wanted not your father :)

[Where Boars Glow]

All the signs are there that Tywin may not be able to seed children, and that all his children are illegitimate heirs to Aerys. Only future books will dispel or manifest this to be so.

See I believe Tyrion is still his for sure. I think it would DESTROY his whole storyline to not be Tywins son and heir.