I hate myself for this

[Logodnica]

No more secret Targs! No more secret Targs! :commie:

But there would of course be a delicious irony if both Jamie and Tyron killed their fathers.

[pharom]

See I believe Tyrion is still his for sure. I think it would DESTROY his whole storyline to not be Tywins son and heir.

I agree on that as well.

As to the main topic, I think the Tyrell's have achieved Tywin's dream. Jaime is known as the kinglsayer, and his abilities as a great knight were being tested constantly after his return from captivity. Cersei is a queen but generally hated by the people as seen in the riots. Contrast that to the public views of Loras and Margaery and I can see how someone who cared for Twyin would cry over his dream being accomplished but "not like this...".

[Logodnica]

As to the main topic, I think the Tyrell's have achieved Tywin's dream. Jaime is known as the kinglsayer, and his abilities as a great knight were being tested constantly after his return from captivity. Cersei is a queen but generally hated by the people as seen in the riots. Contrast that to the public views of Loras and Margaery and I can see how someone who cared for Twyin would cry over his dream being accomplished but "not like this...".

Very good observation!

[jons nissa]

I hate that there are so many far fetched theories about secret Targaryens.

I have especially always hated _{all theories involving Lannisters being secret Targs. However.}

_{I was rereading AFFC last night and read through the chapter where Jamie is having a dream while in Riverrun. He sees a woman dressed as a silent sister. This is Obviously Joanna. She says}

_PARAPHRASING

_{Joanna: you don’t recognize me?}

_{...perhaps you will one day forget your father.}

_{Jamie :this is just a dream.}

_{Joanna: Then why do you only have one hand?}

_{Jamie notices this is true and acknowledges in his dreams he always has both hands.}

_{Joanna: Men always dream of what they want most but are denied. Tywin for example always wanted a son who was a great knight...and a daughter who would be queen.}

_{Jamie: But i am in the Kings Guard and Cersi is the queen?}

_{Joanna looks away as a tear rolls down her cheek.}

_{God I HATE THIS......BUT KING ARYES IS JAMIE AND CERSIS FATHER!}

_{DAMN IT!}

_FUK!

there definitely seems to be something there. and let's face it, there's been enough mad king/wildfire references made with regards to cersei. still, hidden targs do bore me. sigh. what to think?

I really dont know how ppl can extract Aerys being their father from certain book passages. Ppl see what they want to see in the book.

Not every dream is a prophecy and not everyone is a secret <insert your favourite house name>.

yeah, imagine people reading a passage where someone's mother starts to cry when asked by her child "but i am what my father wanted." true, it might mean they are the worst version of it but it is completely not farfetched for someone to wonder about their parentage given how this has been worded. and sure, dreams don't always have to mean something. it's just that most of the dreams in this story seem to. good grief the seventh book is going to be called a dream of spring. dreams are important to this author.

[Faint]

It could simply be a red herring but this is part of the reason why the theory that the twins are Targaryens bastards is not crackpot even if it turns out to be untrue. There is some groundwork behind the idea, no matter how strenuously some would deny it.

[jons nissa]

It could simply be a red herring but this is part of the reason why the theory that the twins are Targaryens bastards is not crackpot even if it turns out to be untrue. There is some groundwork behind the idea, no matter how strenuously some would deny it.

:agree:

[Vale of Tears]

All the signs are there that Tywin may not be able to seed children, and that all his children are illegitimate heirs to Aerys. Only future books will dispel or manifest this to be so.

What signs show Tywin may not be able to seed children?

And just a general question I thought targaryens had notable violet eyes and pale silver blond hair neither cersei or jamie have these traits? Hm just a thought

[jons nissa]

What signs show Tywin may not be able to seed children?

And just a general question I thought targaryens had notable violet eyes and pale silver blond hair neither cersei or jamie have these traits? Hm just a thought

i agree there is nothing to support tywin not being able to sire children. however there have been plenty of targs that did not have the hair or eye color. valarr targaryen is the first that comes to mind that had black hair and blue eyes.

[Vale of Tears]

i agree there is nothing to support tywin not being able to sire children. however there have been plenty of targs that did not have the hair or eye color. valarr targaryen is the first that comes to mind that had black hair and blue eyes.

This is true I totally forgot! Thanks :)

[PlainJeyne]

If the theory is true, who would know about it? How would the reader find out about it? How would it affect the story? Would the characters themselves find out about it?

The reason I believe that it's just a red herring is because I don't see how it would change anything. I highly doubt Cersei is going to be riding a dragon. What is the point?

[Harlan]

If the theory is true, who would know about it? How would the reader find out about it? How would it affect the story? Would the characters themselves find out about it?

The reason I believe that it's just a red herring is because I don't see how it would change anything. I highly doubt Cersei is going to be riding a dragon. What is the point?

I think Jaime and Cersei will end up being Aery's kids. All the ground work is their, and it would make the plot a lot more interesting, for the reasons already mentioned and the fact that it would mean that Jaime and Tyrion both killed their fathers.

[The Others Take Ya]

If the theory is true, who would know about it? How would the reader find out about it? How would it affect the story? Would the characters themselves find out about it?

The reason I believe that it's just a red herring is because I don't see how it would change anything. I highly doubt Cersei is going to be riding a dragon. What is the point?

There is a weirwood in the stone garden at Casterly Rock, maybe the weirwood overheard something. That way Bran would eventually find out.

Personally I think it's more plausible that Tywin Lannister is actually a Targaryen bastard, making the kids 1/4 Targ. There are a few unknowns around Egg's children, and his brothers and sisters children in the Targ family tree. Tytos Lannister is described as weak willed and seems very different then Tywin, and someone who is likely his wife would cheat on (Look at Genna Lannister on the wiki! lol Just like mom perhaps? and she's the only fat Lannister! :laugh: )

Narratively it would be kinda awesome if Tywin who was SO concerned about the family name, was actually not a Lannister the whole time!

History would repeat itself if Tyrion was a kinslayer, bastard, and hand of the king like Bloodraven (who killed his brother Bittersteel).

I asked in the other A + J = T thread if there was already another thread on that possibility because I haven't found it. Does anyone in this thread know where it is? (if it exists)

[Baelor Swyft]

Here's the transcript of the dream, for anyone interested.

That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father’s corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier. “Sister?” he said. But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes. “Sister,” he said, “what would you have of me?” His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe.

“I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?” Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long . . . “Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.” “Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.

“The question is, who are you?” “This is a dream.” “Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.” One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” “I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don’t leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she’d left them long ago.

Martin, George R.R. (2005-11-08). A Feast for Crows: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Four (p. 759). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

I could see it going either way, honestly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Although I don't believe this theory (nor I care whether it comes true or not), IF is true that Cersei and Jaime aren't Tywin's, why would they necessarily be Aerys's? If Joffrey's "madness" is product of incest, then it doesn't matter who fathered his parents. Besides, it would be more humiliating that they turn out to be some very unimportant lord's bastards.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

It would also (in a way) explain Cersei's madness,

Definitely.

_{God I HATE THIS......BUT KING ARYES IS JAMIE AND CERSIS FATHER!}

_{DAMN IT!}

_FUK!

I can't stop laughing.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I hate that there are so many far fetched theories about secret Targaryens.

I have especially always hated _{all theories involving Lannisters being secret Targs. However.}

_{I was rereading AFFC last night and read through the chapter where Jamie is having a dream while in Riverrun. He sees a woman dressed as a silent sister. This is Obviously Joanna. She says}

_PARAPHRASING

_{Joanna: you don’t recognize me?}

_{...perhaps you will one day forget your father.}

_{Jamie :this is just a dream.}

_{Joanna: Then why do you only have one hand?}

_{Jamie notices this is true and acknowledges in his dreams he always has both hands.}

_{Joanna: Men always dream of what they want most but are denied. Tywin for example always wanted a son who was a great knight...and a daughter who would be queen.}

_{Jamie: But i am in the Kings Guard and Cersi is the queen?}

_{Joanna looks away as a tear rolls down her cheek.}

_{God I HATE THIS......BUT KING ARYES IS JAMIE AND CERSIS FATHER!}

_{DAMN IT!}

_FUK!

Or it could mean Jaime is not really a great knight having forsaken his vows and killing the man he was sworn to protect. Cersie is not really a Queen as Robert was an usurper and doesnt have the qualities of a true Queen.

[Maxpey]

I thought this dream meant that Cersei and Jaime did become what Tywin wanted them to become, but not in the way Tywin wanted them to. What I mean is that he wanted Jaime to be the "Young Lion" instead he became the "Kingslayer", he wanted Cersei to truly be the "Light of the West" or whatever they called her, instead she became the "Bitch Queen".

:agree: Both became what Tywin wanted, yet still turned out to be failures (at least that's what Jaime thinks subconsciously).

[Where Boars Glow]

Although I don't believe this theory (nor I care whether it comes true or not), IF is true that Cersei and Jaime aren't Tywin's, why would they necessarily be Aerys's? If Joffrey's "madness" is product of incest, then it doesn't matter who fathered his parents. Besides, it would be more humiliating that they turn out to be some very unimportant lord's bastards.

I think just because it was mentioned that Aryes may have taken his "Lords right" with her

[Where Boars Glow]

Or it could mean Jaime is not really a great knight having forsaken his vows and killing the man he was sworn to protect. Cersie is not really a Queen as Robert was an usurper and doesnt have the qualities of a true Queen.

I'm pretty sure queen just means the matriarch of the ruling family of the kingdom. Cersi was a queen. Jamie was a knight.

Rather they were great people remains to be seen. With Cersi the ship may have sailed :)

[Would be wolf]

My various theories are starting to conflict.

I am a firm believer in R+L=J.

I am willing to consider A+J=T or even A+J=J+C, although I would like keep the number of secret Targs to a minimum.

I like the idea in the Brown Ben Plum threads that it takes "two drops" of Targ blood to bond with a dragon.

I have also thought that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon would be the three heads of the dragon. Not all of these can play out, as I don't see any Targ blood in Lyanna's line or Joanna's line.

Thoughts?