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[Book Spoilers] EP301 Discussion


Ran

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Man they are really going for the 'harlot with a heart of gold' thing with Shae, eh? So messy.

I was just thinking of this, my thoughts are that lets say GRRM plans on eventually having Tyrion find Tysha and D & D were like what if we have Shae never betray him and have Tyrion find her for better TV. can't you see that final interaction between Tywin and Tyrion.

"where is Shae?"

"where ever whores go"

I just can't see this Shae betraying Tyrion but I can see her trying ot help Tyrion but being forced to leave after PW. Because tv audience just won't care about Tysha she was only mentioned briefly in Season 1. I'm sure they'll even make something up for a new Jamie/Tyrion scene while he's leaving the cell.

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Also, did Littlefinger confirm that he knew it was Arya at Harrenhal??

Maybe, maybe not. Remember last season he told Catelyn that Arya was safe and sound in King's Landing. He may have recognized Arya, or he may just be lying to Sansa, and inadvertently saying something true.

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I just can't see this Shae betraying Tyrion but I can see her trying ot help Tyrion but being forced to leave after PW. Because tv audience just won't care about Tysha she was only mentioned briefly in Season 1. I'm sure they'll even make something up for a new Jamie/Tyrion scene while he's leaving the cell.

Isn't that the whole point? That Tyrion has deluded himself about the nature of their relationship--just as he has with Bronn, who he thinks is a "friend"--and therefore is shocked that she is, in fact, a whore.

Then again, Bronn hasn't kicked Tyrion to the curb yet so maybe they are going to go a different direction with that.

ETA: Also, I have a hard time imagining them going through with a Tyrion-strangling-Shae plot no matter what. Killing Tywin? Yeah, doable. But Tyrion is the closest thing they've got to a likable protagonist, and him strangling his former lover is probably not going to go over well for a lot of viewers.

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Best scene hands down was the Tywin/Tyrion one, great stuff, a masterclass in acting by Mr Dance.

Worst scene imo was the brothel scene with Bronn which was totally useless. Even the scene with Ros was better and that is saying something.

I don't know that it was totally useless -- my husband got a T & A scene and I got a shirtless Jerome Flynn scene, so we were happy.

But seriously, I think it all goes to show that Ser Bronn is indeed coming to expect the the finer things in life, and it sets the stage for what is going to happen later on. Unless I'm recalling things incorrectly, this is more or less true to the book, except that in the book Pod pulls Bronn away from Chataya's where he was enjoying the company of two ladies instead of just one.

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Was not sure how I felt about the beginning scene with Sam, shouldn't Ghost be with or near Jon? They kind of made Sam seem like an idiot/coward for not sending the ravens and I felt bad.

Ros & Shae...don't mind Shae that much but Ros bothers me.

As someone said before they saw Mance as an attractive older guy. I feel the same way and I wish they had him singing but no problem.

Not really big problems for me though. Loved the episode. Tywin/Tyrion, Tormund, the Giant, Dany, Barristan, Margaery.

Do you think they will have Mance's wife or no?

Anyone know what Tywin was writing?

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Maybe, maybe not. Remember last season he told Catelyn that Arya was safe and sound in King's Landing. He may have recognized Arya, or he may just be lying to Sansa, and inadvertently saying something true.

This was my thought as well, but re-watching season 2 recently, LF definitely does a double (and then triple) take when he sees Arya at Harrenhall. His comment today confirms it in my mind. Typical LF that he recognizes her on the spot, but does not tell Tywin, keep ing the secret hoping for an opportunity to use it to his advantage!!

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Overall, I enjoyed the episode. Just glad to have another outlet. Certain things did stand out to me, both good and bad. The opening scene was pretty weak and didn't Sam get the raven's off in the book? The giant looked pretty cool, but didn't fit the description in the book at all. Tywin and Tyrion's exchange was fantastic. Margery stopping for the orphans and the dinner scene were great, even though not in the book, it helped set up her as a political player. As a side note to a few comments above, did people not expect Valyrian or Ghiscari to be spoken on the show? What else would they do? Anyway solid start.

Whoops forgot to mention I expected Mance to be more playfully cunning and less serious than the portrayal.

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Was not sure how I felt about the beginning scene with Sam, shouldn't Ghost be with or near Jon? They kind of made Sam seem like an idiot/coward for not sending the ravens and I felt bad.

This was my only major issue with the ep, I hope they are setting Sam up & they make the slayer scene way more badass than it is in the books (think Bilbo saving Thorin).

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Isn't that the whole point? That Tyrion has deluded himself about the nature of their relationship--just as he has with Bronn, who he thinks is a "friend"--and therefore is shocked that she is, in fact, a whore.

Then again, Bronn hasn't kicked Tyrion to the curb yet so maybe they are going to go a different direction with that.

ETA: Also, I have a hard time imagining them going through with a Tyrion-strangling-Shae plot no matter what. Killing Tywin? Yeah, doable. But Tyrion is the closest thing they've got to a likable protagonist, and him strangling his former lover is probably not going to go over well for a lot of viewers.

Oh come on, it's great TV. It wasn't just that Shae was sleeping with Tywin and Tyrion was deluded, Shae was also one of his accusers during his trial. His strangling her will mark the first step of Tyrion toward open rebellion against the Lannisters, and will be a great jaw dropper, just as it was for readers.

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Where is Illyrio's presence? He sent Selmy and ships to Dany in Qarth, right? It seems they are cutting that out and having Dany fund her trip with the gold looted from Daxos.

Well, he only showed up at the end of the episode. We could get a scene later on where Dany asks how he managed to track him down, and he mentions having help from Illyrio, so we could see something of that mentioned in the next couple of episodes, even if not all of the details are the same.

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Everything I wanted to say has been said upthread. The Tyrion + Tywin was masterfully done. Tyrion was an emotional punching bag and I winced several times. Poor Halfman. Margaery rocked as she grew into her role as "The People's Queen". The subsequent Royal Family dinner scene with the jealous and suspicious Cersei was great. Joffrey's little dig at his mother's aging was just the icing on the cake.

One thing that really stood out to me was the amazing special effects with the giant! Drogon dramatically sweeping above Dany's ship was another SFX tour-de-force.

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I don't know why people were saying the episode was slow. It took it's time but I didn't think the pacing was a problem.

A few sundry thoughts...

  • Wow, Stannis got hotter. Love the scruff of mourning.
  • Margaery is playing Joff like a fiddle. I love it. She's so adorably devious. Joff insulting his mother in front of her was so amusing.
  • Watching Cersei want to tear Margaery's tongue out was awesome.
  • Bronn calling the Kingsguard out on beating little girls was hilarious.
  • Drogon is gorgeous.
  • Why does the Unsullied armor (sans helmet) remind me of Fenris?
  • The Qybern reveal was hilarious in a hideous way.
  • Finally, the Lord Tywin we know and hate (well, sorta hate...Dance is too charismatic).

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well there is her own wedding. besides, the actress stated in an interview that you will see sansa laugh this season. something must happen to make her happy.

I'd assume that, as in the books, Margaery befriends Sansa and they spend time together, go hawking, arrange her supposed betrothal to Willas, make Sansa feel like she has a female friend again and hope for a decent marriage to a nice guy in beautiful Highgarden...

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I've missed the Battle of the Fist. I know they have to keep a budget, but they could have at least shown flashes of it. Come on, it has an undead bear!

I pictured the giants wouldn't be so human like, pity.

As for Mance, well I don't know if the softer Mance from the books would have worked here. And Jon's answer was way better than the books. The whole 'thousands of years ago the First Men fought against the White Walkers and defeated them' links to Jon (and the wildlings) badass heritage and makes sense. Claiming he's deserting because he's a bastard does not.

I actually liked the Shae & Ross scene - Ross pointing out Sansa's importance finally makes her character useful for something, even if it's just linking the North and King's Landing.

And Barristan, well, no way they can keep his identity hidden. OTOH, seeing him on TV really makes me doubt of his current combat prowess. He is over sixty after all.

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Isn't that the whole point? That Tyrion has deluded himself about the nature of their relationship--just as he has with Bronn, who he thinks is a "friend"--and therefore is shocked that she is, in fact, a whore.

I don't think that is exactly the point because in the books Shae was very clear about who she was from the beginning so it was clear that Tyrion was deluding himself. But in the show she seems to really care about him and even about Sansa so it will just make no sense if there is a betrayal and it will look even worse when she dies... imo of course

I don't know that it was totally useless -- my husband got a T & A scene and I got a shirtless Jerome Flynn scene, so we were happy.

I'm going to put 'shirtless jerome flynn' in the same column as 'naked pycelle' and 'naked hodor'. I mean seriously the only time we ever got a nice male body in this show was Khal Drogo's butt and the Renly / Loras scene.

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Oh come on, it's great TV. It wasn't just that Shae was sleeping with Tywin and Tyrion was deluded, Shae was also one of his accusers during his trial. His strangling her will mark the first step of Tyrion toward open rebellion against the Lannisters, and will be a great jaw dropper, just as it was for readers.

The thing is that they have gone so in depth with TV Shae that it would seem so out of character for her to betray Tyrion and sleep with Tywin for gold, especially after that lets run away and be poor together speech this episode. Yes, Bronn is starting to show his real colors but Shae has been made to look sincere. The audience would just be like wtf? If she just flipped. In the books she's always distantly suspicious. I really think they plan on replacing Tysha with Shae.

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