[Book Spoilers] EP301 Discussion

[Nobody of the canals]

Does anyone have an idea of how they're going to do the Dany/Jorah fallout? Selmy wasn't at the council meetings, and he's already revealed himself, so there's going to be no way to do the "you out me, i out you" thing those two have going on in the books.

Or are they going to have Selmy do the Jorah reveal later causing Dany to get mad at both of them, Mormont for spying and Selmy for not telling her earlier?

[Loras Stan]

Do people think we'll see Loras become a member of the Kingsguard still this season? I certainly hope we do.

Honestly, I really really hope he does, but I'm starting to fear that he won't. While we'll find out if Willas even exists within the series next episode, they've already combined Loras and Garlan togther. I won't be surprised if they nix Willas, as well, and then do the whole plot to marry Loras off to Sansa, instead of Willas--which means he can't be in the Kingsguard.

Which, personally, is something that will really bother me. Tyrion's conversation with Loras on why he chose to join the Kingsguard is one of his more defining moments, and i'd hate to lose that. The candle line is probably Loras's most popular line, and while I could see them encorporating it in another way, I'd rather not lose it's context. Besides, Loras joins the Kingsguard to ensure that he can protect Margaery...and gives him the in to have interactions with Jamie (which are amazing, as well).

So...yeah. I'm not quite sure where they are going to go with this, now that Garlan and possibly Willas don't exist. But then again, we don't even know if the "oh you can marry my brother" conversation will happen between Margaery and Sansa, yet. That will come next episode.

[Reposado]

Honestly, I really really hope he does, but I'm starting to fear that he won't. While we'll find out if Willas even exists within the series next episode, they've already combined Loras and Garlan togther. I won't be surprised if they nix Willas, as well, and then do the whole plot to marry Loras off to Sansa, instead of Willas--which means he can't be in the Kingsguard.

Which, personally, is something that will really bother me. Tyrion's conversation with Loras on why he chose to join the Kingsguard is one of his more defining moments, and i'd hate to lose that. The candle line is probably Loras's favorite line, and while I could see them encorporating it in another way, I'd rather not lose it's context. Besides, Loras joins the Kingsguard to ensure that he can protect Margaery...and gives him the in to have interactions with Jamie (which are amazing, as well).

So...yeah. I'm not quite sure where they are going to go with this, now that Garlan and possibly Willas don't exist. But then again, we don't even know if the "oh you can marry my brother" conversation will happen between Margaery and Sansa, yet. That will come next episode.

pretty sure that conversation is with jaime, but yeah that is a must have conversation.

i could see your fears being right and i think it would be not for the better. easy enough for there to be a willas offscreen. he was offscreen in the book.

[Loras Stan]

pretty sure that conversation is with jaime, but yeah that is a must have conversation.

i could see your fears being right and i think it would be not for the better. easy enough for there to be a willas offscreen. he was offscreen in the book.

It's Tyrion, because he he wonders why Loras joined at 17, etc. Hes with Ser Balon I think.

But yeah, I'd rather just the mysterious Willas exist in the wings. It will keep things a lot simpler. But that still means Loras needs to join up soon. Maybe next episode.

[King Tyrion I]

Dinklage is great, but I still believe one of the most important parts of Tyrion's character is how being a hideous disfigured dwarf has effected his entire life. Dinklage is just too good looking and the scar is nothing.

There was a kind of reference to the books in the Cersei/Tyrion scene. She told him what she'd heard about him loosing half of his nose.

[Lord Godric]

pretty sure that conversation is with jaime, but yeah that is a must have conversation.

i could see your fears being right and i think it would be not for the better. easy enough for there to be a willas offscreen. he was offscreen in the book.

No, I think it's with Tyrion as well. The conversation with Jaime is the I'll stick you "in spots even Renly didn't find." They usually include popular lines that way, and since we have actually seen Renly/Loras on screen I hope they include it also.

[wolverine]

There was a kind of reference to the books in the Cersei/Tyrion scene. She told him what she'd heard about him loosing half of his nose.

Yup, would have been better to me if he was uglier to begin with and actually lost his nose, instead of just a shout out to readers. But this is something that has long bothered me, along with Tyrion being more spry than the one from the books.

[-Ghost-]

So, after waiting 42 weeks, we get back some of our good ol’ GOT groove back. Overall- solid, smart, fun and (best of all) fast. This episode gave us a lot of good plot points without rushing and covered a lot of ground.

What I liked:

When We Last Left Our Hero: Jon Snow’s introduction to the Caesar King beyond the Wall was great. We got a lot out of a bunch of different characters with a TON of information all locked into a 7-10 minute scene. Great work. We met Mance, we met Giantsbane, we see that Ygritte is still great and we see that Jon has a little bit of quick thinking to him. I thought the decision to “pick up right where we left off” was terrific; we don’t need (nor have the time for) an entire episode dedicated to the regurgitating everything we just saw (if we did, we would just reread Fest for Crows).

I Have NO Idea What Happened At Harrenhal: We see Robb outside Harrenhal, looking to fight a seige, only he waltzes right in and sees a slaughter. So what happened? Not much explination. My take is that the Mountain executed a whole bunch of northerners who were probably taken prisoner after the Battle of the Green Ford. But it didn’t make that much sense. Why were they all just dead? Where was the Mountain? Did they just lined everyone up outside the courtyard to start killing people? How come we didn't get his people before? How come there's never been any discussion about prisoners at Harrenhal? Now, mind you, I didn't dislike this scene I thought it provided good bedrock of reminding us where Robb is at least trying to do; it also provides us a good look into the minds of some of his subordinates. But overall I just found a whole scene onfusing and really untethered to the overall story.

I found this Stannis-Davos scene to be painfully bad. In the book, Stannis is almost giddy that Davos is alive; he even invites him to work on some strategy. You actually get a hint of warmth from the King. Also, Davos’ activities make a lot more sense in the book; he gets thrown in jail, and then he meets the King not the other way around (which just seems long-winded here). Here, there is absolutely no emotional resonance from Stannis; he's almost a cardboard cut-out. There is no sense of caring or intimacy from the King to his Hand. This, by the way, contradicts what they show (to say nothing of the books) says about their relationship; namely the King really does care about Davos. Why isn't Show-Stannis at least modestly happy to see him? And why is he so lifeless?

And all I could think of is that the producers continually misunderstand who this character is and what he's trying to do. That instead of a flushed out and humane character, they have interposed a robot, virtually without feeling and without self-inspection. And they add to this problem the idea that Stannis is being either manipulated or outright control by Mel. In other words, they want Stannis to be the guy who doesn't understand or care about what he's doing; a Faustian caricature of what was in the books anyway a layered and nuanced character.

This is hard for me; Stannis is one of my favorite characters in both the books and on the show. This show mishandling of this character has me cringing. Now, don't get me wrong; I could be completely off base on this. It's possible that I misinterpreted what's going on in that scene. And I will need more episodes to get a good handle on this relationship and on Stannis’ character. However, I keep coming back to the fear that the producers just want to make Stannis a type of villain instead of, quite possibly, a very jaded and complex “hero.”

But like I said I could be wrong.

Overall this is a solid 7.5 out of 10 and I'm really happy with the pace setting.

Good post. I agree with most of what you said.

I was really excited coming into this season about Jon meeting Mance. The way they changed the stories that Jon and Mance tell eachother kind of ruined this for me. Mance's story allowed the reader to get to know him and understand where hes coming from. This made me instantly like Mance. The change takes that away I feel. Jons book story is also better I think.

Same thing with Harrenhal with me.

You nailed it with Stannis and Davos. I was watching like WTF theyre making him a dick to Davos and Mel makes him look like a little bitch. Couldnt have said it better.

[The Monkey]

Gotta love HBO's April Fool's joke:

http://hbowatch.com/peter-dinklage-april-season-four/

Even got a stab at book readers:

When asked whether he approved of this decision, George R.R Martin responded enthusiastically:

“Warwick was actually my pick back in 2009 when we first began looking at potential cast members. It finally hit me last week while taking an indefinite break from writing

The Winds of Winter

to catch up on some of my favorite movies. I think it was his epic role in Willow that finally convinced me. Such wit. Such… tenderness.”

[wolverine]

I thought Dalla and Val were in the tent when Jon met Vance. Am I misremembering?

[Lord Godric]

Gotta love HBO's April Fool's joke:

http://hbowatch.com/...il-season-four/

Even got a stab at book readers:

"Indefinite break" haha sure feels that way.

[Dragonstoned]

The Continued Misunderstanding of the Word "Unquestionably": this one take some explanation. During last season one of the producers made the comment that Renly would “unquestionably” be a better king than Stannis. “ Even after watching the show (and obviously reading the books) and seeing how weak, unproven, terrified and plyable Renly is, all I can think of is that either:

The producers do not understand who Renly is;

The producers do not understand who Stannis is; or

The producers do not understand what the word “unquestionably” means.

And this was delivered in the really stilted Davos-Stannis "reunion" scene.

I found this Stannis-Davos scene to be painfully bad. In the book, Stannis is almost giddy that Davos is alive; he even invites him to work on some strategy. You actually get a hint of warmth from the King. Also, Davos’ activities make a lot more sense in the book; he gets thrown in jail, and then he meets the King not the other way around (which just seems long-winded here). Here, there is absolutely no emotional resonance from Stannis; he's almost a cardboard cut-out. There is no sense of caring or intimacy from the King to his Hand. This, by the way, contradicts what they show (to say nothing of the books) says about their relationship; namely the King really does care about Davos. Why isn't Show-Stannis at least modestly happy to see him? And why is he so lifeless?

And all I could think of is that the producers continually misunderstand who this character is and what he's trying to do. That instead of a flushed out and humane character, they have interposed a robot, virtually without feeling and without self-inspection. And they add to this problem the idea that Stannis is being either manipulated or outright control by Mel. In other words, they want Stannis to be the guy who doesn't understand or care about what he's doing; a Faustian caricature of what was in the books anyway a layered and nuanced character.

This is hard for me; Stannis is one of my favorite characters in both the books and on the show. This show mishandling of this character has me cringing. Now, don't get me wrong; I could be completely off base on this. It's possible that I misinterpreted what's going on in that scene. And I will need more episodes to get a good handle on this relationship and on Stannis’ character. However, I keep coming back to the fear that the producers just want to make Stannis a type of villain instead of, quite possibly, a very jaded and complex “hero.”

But like I said I could be wrong.

Overall this is a solid 7.5 out of 10 and I'm really happy with the pace setting.

Yeah don't get me started on the treatment of Stannis. Dillane is fantastic but the way they're writing him is poor, don't think they get him at all. Should have had Davos arrested preemptively by guards and brought out to be welcomed by Stannis later as per ASoS, guess they've already used up the 'being made hand' scene and just want people to think he's a douchebag.

[Ser Loudmouth]

Did anyone else catch Jorah telling Dany that she wont get a khalasar until she proves her strength? Anyone else thinking they could be alluding to the end of book 5?

Yes, it looks like the writers are setting up a lot of things for later in the show, and not just later in the season, which is a nice touch

For example, this is where we first hear about Tyrion's ambition to be lord of Casterly Rock. In the Books, he is still working towards that ambition as late as book 5. If and when the show gets there, viewers will look back to this episode as the place where it all began.

The continued missed opportunities of Sansa Stark: In Sansa’s the scene in the show, we find her describing what she thinks certain ships are doing in the bay. In the beginning I thought it was because Sansa added information that she had picked up on that gave her special insight into each one of these ships and their captains, and a better understanding of Westeros commerce. Unfortunately, however, she is playing stupid game. Again I don't mind it very much, but I would much rather had Santa actually advancing in the game of thrones than having another relatively empty scene.

Totally agree. I too believed that Sansa in this scene was practicing some "humint" skills, and I was disappointed that she was just making stuff up (or was she...?) With Littlefinger being a pale shadow of his book character, Sansa can't just rely on his mentoring. If she wants to play the game of thrones, she will have to developp some abilities by herself.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I noticed that Cersei tells Margery "when you are queen", so we are seeing the back scenes plotting of getting rid of Sansa that we never saw in the books, which is a nice touch.

Charles Dance is awesome, and Peter Dinklage and he just spark off of each other.

Once Margaery came on the scene, Sansa and Joff's betrothal was broken, in the books and on the show last season.

[Ice Turtle]

5 things I really liked:

1, Sansa's dialogue with Shae. It shows that while Sansa is a victim and hostage she is still a bossy highborn girl and I find her preference for pretty lies to truth something that is very in character for her

2, Jon staring at a giant

3, Marg/Cersei tension

4, children swimming near sunk ships

5, Joffrey

3 things I did not like:

1, Beginning: It like, wait what happened to that White walker that was standing about meter from Sam?! Why did Ghost teleport there?! And why in 77 hells is Mormont suddenly just calmly standing there and having talks like they were in the park and not in a snowstorm surrounded by zombies?! Speaking about zombies wights, why they just went away?

2, Harrenhall, please will someone insert like one line that would say what happened there?

3, Too much of Marge the Saint, shorter scene would do it too. This somehow seemed over the top.

1 thing I'm puzzled about:

1, Volantis - why all the talk about this city in the show?

[King Tyrion I]

Gotta love HBO's April Fool's joke:

http://hbowatch.com/...il-season-four/

Even got a stab at book readers:

:lmao:

Loved that. :thumbsup:

Thanks for posting.

[7V3N]

First my complaints:

• They were so forward with the Tyrells being charitable and Margaery being kind to the common people. The scene with Margaery was too long for the point it served, IMO. This only supported my thought that the show has slowly removed all subtleties.
  
• I would have preferred Davos' book-capture on his return to Dragonstone, but obviously that whole thing is a bit ongoing so I have to see how it ends up. I was also upset that we didn't see his vision of the Mother.
  
• I hate both Shae and Ros, and I don't see why they are in the roles that they are in - and Ros even said so, to some extent. Why is Shae so protective of Sansa to the point that it brings her in danger? Ros makes more sense given how she had to "move on" after being horrified by the bastard baby incident, and grew into a sort of informant role. Not sure why she is walking around with Littlefinger though.
  
• The actor for Littlefinger talks in such a strange way. It always makes me laugh, in a bad way though.
  
• The scorpion thing that Barristan stabbed was very underwhelming. He just sorta stabbed it once with a dagger, and that was that.
  
• I think Peter Dinklage (Tyrion) needs to tone down the sarcasm a bit. In some scenes it feels to be a bit too much.
  
• I'm not sure why they cast a Victarion Greyjoy to be Mance Rayder. That whole scene just was far too tense, where in the book it was uncomfortable comfortable. No way this Mance is a silver-tongued singer.
  
• The more I see Jon Snow, the less I like the actor.
  

The good:

• Dany's scenes were amazing and I love how we got a good look at the dragon so early. The Unsullied scene was done excellently (though IIRC, the Unsullied had to raise a puppy and then kill it. Not kill a baby.). I also think they struck gold with those three actors (Jorah, Barristan, and Dany) so there are sure to be some great scenes to come.
  
• It makes sense to drop the Arstan Whitebeard thing since viewers can immediately recognize him.
  
• I'm interested in how they will do Qyburn.
  
• Ygritte is excellent. This actress must really know the character.
  
• The actor for Davos is perfect, and they write well for him.
  
• Bronn is still great, and they have the relationship between he and Tyrion just right. I hope they include Bronn and his further advancements.
  
• Tywin delivered that speech so well. I would have liked to hear more rage when he spoke of his wife, but he said it in a sort of matter-of-fact way.
  

Overall a decent episode that got me really excited for Dany's story. I just hope the episodes begin to focus on the important things.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The guy who played Ilyn Payne I think.

No. His name is Wilko Johnson. Mr. Johnson was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and is still alive to date.

[Lord Godric]

I really don't understand the confusion about what happened at Harrenhal. Robb and Roose are talking before entering the castle that the Mountain holds/held it and they were anticipating fighting or laying seige to the castle and then Robb says "but I don't think there will be a battle" and we see a bunch of slaughter Northmen. I instantly took it to mean the Mountain gave the castle up but not before slaughtering all these prisoners.

[Darryk]

They nailed Tywin and Tyrion for sure. Seeing Charles Dance deliver that dialogue as it was in the books gave me chills.

Jon and Mance's meeting felt extremely fast-tracked though. Are they gonna cut out all the Bael the Bard stuff entirely or are they just gonna spread a lot of the dialogue from Jon and Mance's first meeting out over the season?

Pity they didn't have the budget to show the Battle of the Fist, would've made for a great opening.