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[Book Spoilers] EP301 Discussion


Ran

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Yeah don't get me started on the treatment of Stannis. Dillane is fantastic but the way they're writing him is poor, don't think they get him at all.

I share those same reservations and concerns, but I have a feeling that Stannis being a lifeless melisandre-puppet is part of the season 3 arc for Stannis, and part of his character development. I think his character will develop in 3 parts, more or less, for viewers:

1. First, we'll see him lifeless and manipulated like in ep. 1, empty and seemingly broken.

2. Then, we'll get a bit of Stannis telling Davos how he's converted to full Lord-of-Light fanaticism and how he's AA and needs to save the Realm from the never-ending night, no matter what it takes or however much they dislike it. ([Gendry/whoever] as the royal blood sacrifice & "we must do our duty" speech)

3. Then, at the end, we'll see the spell sort of lifted at ~ep. 10 when Davos helps the sacrifice victim escape and tells Stannis he has the cart before the horse etc., and to go North.

I'm pretty willing to give Dave and Dan the benefit of the doubt and hold off my judgments until season's end with regard to Stannis.

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I really don't understand the confusion about what happened at Harrenhal. Robb and Roose are talking before entering the castle that the Mountain holds/held it and they were anticipating fighting or laying seige to the castle and then Robb says "but I don't think there will be a battle" and we see a bunch of slaughter Northmen. I instantly took it to mean the Mountain gave the castle up but not before slaughtering all these prisoners.

There was never any mention of prisoners of war being held at Harrenhall last season, this was I thought why there was no weasle soup and Arya just escaped w/Genddry and Hot Pie. Now, all of a sudden Harrenhall was chock full of Northern prisoners? Incongruous.

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The explanation for Harrenhal is that Clegane's men aren't putting up a fight against Robb, instead just running. I'm okay with that more or less, I think it makes a bit of sense for the Lannisters not to fight him right now. Don't understand the big confusion about it.

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After thinking about it some more I guess the Barristan reveal was necessary. He is introduced much later (in Astapor instead of Qarth) so I guess there wasn't enough story there to hide him for very long...

Am I the only reader who thought the Strong Belwas with a squire,aged Arstan Whitebeard was either some kind of brain flip by GRRM or was GRRM pulling another insider football joke on us?

An offish pit gladiator(who in no way seems knighted!) has a squire!

I thought any second that Jorah Mormont was going to step forward like the Monty Python Sargent-major and say " knock this off , it's silly!"

It almost seems the show did the first version George typed up , but threw away when he thought of some mischievous jape , which I would not put past GRRM.

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There was never any mention of prisoners of war being held at Harrenhall last season, this was I thought why there was no weasle soup and Arya just escaped w/Genddry and Hot Pie. Now, all of a sudden Harrenhall was chock full of Northern prisoners? Incongruous.

Not mentioned last season, sure. But not completely un-understandable as people seem to be suggesting.
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(though IIRC, the Unsullied had to raise a puppy and then kill it. Not kill a baby.).

they had to do both

Jon and Mance's meeting felt extremely fast-tracked though. Are they gonna cut out all the Bael the Bard stuff entirely or are they just gonna spread a lot of the dialogue from Jon and Mance's first meeting out over the season?

i bet they cut it. this guy does not seem like a bard

First my complaints:

  • They were so forward with the Tyrells being charitable and Margaery being kind to the common people. The scene with Margaery was too long for the point it served, IMO. This only supported my thought that the show has slowly removed all subtleties.

sure shots of wagons and food would have made the point better, but that might have made it seem as if more than 100 people live in kings landing. dont want to go against prior established facts

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I really don't understand the confusion about what happened at Harrenhal. Robb and Roose are talking before entering the castle that the Mountain holds/held it and they were anticipating fighting or laying seige to the castle and then Robb says "but I don't think there will be a battle" and we see a bunch of slaughter Northmen. I instantly took it to mean the Mountain gave the castle up but not before slaughtering all these prisoners.

Who were those Northmen? Why they had been there? The problem is that there is no line mentioning that they were supposed to be prisoners.

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I did like how most of the characters were still talking about the Battle of the Blackwater. It really does highlight the scope and effect of the battle.

Another subtle thing they did was right before the Bronn/brothel scene, they showed a bunch of kids swimming in the bay. They were yelling things like "find the treasure" and "there's wreckage everywhere

I thought that was a nice touch. Addressing the reality that with all those ships destroyed on the black water, the ocean floor would now be littered with anything and everything that was on those vessels

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Not mentioned last season, sure. But not completely un-understandable as people seem to be suggesting.

What is Quyborn doing with them? Are they totally cutting out the brave companions? If so, who is going to chop off Jamie's hand?

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Oh, and Margaery is totally adorable. I always liked her in the books, but it's hard to get an objective look at her since we mostly see her through Sansa's (adoring) eyes or Cersei's (poisoned) eyes. Nice to see her in the show being a clearly competent and savvy woman who happens to be cute as a freaking button.

That's an excellent observation that I hadn't thought of from that point of view.

They already had the scene in the throne room where Joffrey accepts Margaery and sets Sansa aside.

Yes of course they did, it slipped my mind. :blushing:

That scene of her watching from the balcony, and the look of joy on her face that she couldn't contain. But we never saw any behind-the-scenes dinners with Margaery and Joff and Cersei, like the one in this episode.

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What is Quyborn doing with them? Are they totally cutting out the brave companions? If so, who is going to chop off Jamie's arm?

I think they most likely are cutting the Brave Companions, and Jaime and Brienne will be captured by "Stark" men before being brought to Roose. They've set up the whole Roose and Rickard want Jaime thing and have men looking for him. A few of these men capture Jaime, get a little over anxious and decide to punish him...easily done really.
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I share those same reservations and concerns, but I have a feeling that Stannis being a lifeless melisandre-puppet is part of the season 3 arc for Stannis, and part of his character development. I think his character will develop in 3 parts, more or less, for viewers:

1. First, we'll see him lifeless and manipulated like in ep. 1, empty and seemingly broken.

2. Then, we'll get a bit of Stannis telling Davos how he's converted to full Lord-of-Light fanaticism and how he's AA and needs to save the Realm from the never-ending night, no matter what it takes or however much they dislike it. ([Gendry/whoever] as the royal blood sacrifice & "we must do our duty" speech)

3. Then, at the end, we'll see the spell sort of lifted at ~ep. 10 when Davos helps the sacrifice victim escape and tells Stannis he has the cart before the horse etc., and to go North.

I'm pretty willing to give Dave and Dan the benefit of the doubt and hold off my judgments until season's end with regard to Stannis.

Mmmn I'm willing to let it play out before I start slagging them off, but his portrayal in ep301 is a continuation for me of the lifeless character they've written in season 2. Your arc makes sense though.

Anyway think it would have worked better to have him thrown in a cell immediately without seeing Stannis, given he was said to be seeing no-one and not even his generals. Strange for him to give permission for Davos to see him if he then looked like he couldn't be bothered.

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I think they most likely are cutting the Brave Companions, and Jaime and Brienne will be captured by "Stark" men before being brought to Roose. They've set up the whole Roose and Rickard want Jaime thing and have men looking for him. A few of these men capture Jaime, get a little over anxious and decide to punish him...easily done really.

Is it? It was a big deal Jamie's hand being cut off and Roose making sure that it was known he had nothing to do with it, if they make it that it is Roose's men who do it, without his leave, that would be stupid and Roose would never stand for such a thing.

I don't know, I thought the whole Harrenhall thing was messed up since Arya never once mentioned or spoke about any Northern lords imprisoned in Harrenhall for the entire season last year.

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Loved Dany in all of her scenes. Ugh, I missed this Dany so much in Season 2. Welcome back!

Drogon was awesome, showing off for his mommy (flipping the fish up, roasting it in midair and then swallowing it) and then coming in for a pet from Dany. So cute, or as cute as a dog-sized, fire-breathing lizard can be.

They were so forward with the Tyrells being charitable and Margaery being kind to the common people. The scene with Margaery was too long for the point it served, IMO. This only supported my thought that the show has slowly removed all subtleties.

They are jumping the gun a bit on the AFFC Cersei/Margaery power struggle. However, in the books Sansa reflected that Margaery had done nothing to make the people love her, just as Sansa had done nothing to make the people hate her. Here, it seems as if Margaery is actually doing something that will make the people love her.

Why is Shae so protective of Sansa to the point that it brings her in danger?

Eh, Sansa seems to bring that out in people. TV Shae seems to have a protective and nurturing character, anyway, and she knows how much Sansa's been through.

I don't mind the Arstan plot being scrubbed at all.

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Anyway think it would have worked better to have him thrown in a cell immediately without seeing Stannis, given he was said to be seeing no-one and not even his generals. Strange for him to give permission for Davos to see him if he then looked like he couldn't be bothered.

And the guards. But they said he only sees the Red Woman. I agree with you, throwing him in a cell would have been smarter. It also would have saved them a tiny bit of money.

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Is it? It was a big deal Jamie's hand being cut off and Roose making sure that it was known he had nothing to do with it, if they make it that it is Roose's men who do it, without his leave, that would be stupid and Roose would never stand for such a thing.

They can still make it as if Roose had nothing to do with it, as he most likely wouldn't, besides the fact that the men were sent out on his orders to bring Jaime back but (most likely) not to harm him. I see Roose being pissed when Jaime is returned to him with a hand missing and punishing those men of his.
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I agree wholeheartedly with those who said that the Tywin/Tyrion exchange was brilliant. I really appreciated the fact that they lifted Tywin's monologue more-or-less verbatim from the book, and Mr. Dance delivered it beautifully. I felt for Tyrion in a way I never did in the book during this scene.

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I thought it was a strong episode but not perfect. The previous seasons have taken a couple episodes to ramp up and I don't think this one will be any different. I liked the quick reveal of Barristan, because the notion of having his identity "hidden" wouldn't really play on TV. I am hoping that this episode does not preclude the introduction of Belwas, just because I like the character but I could see how his character could be removed without narrative problems.

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