[Book Spoilers] Book deviations in this episode

[Stormie]

Disagree. Arya had to stay incognito, since revealing herself to Tywin would obviously return her to King's Landing. Barristan doesn't have much to lose by revealing himself. He's already exiled, and is begging Dany's forgiveness. Arya's reasons for staying incognito are far, far stronger than Barristan's.

I thought Barristan's reason for staying incognito was that he wanted to observe Daenerys for a while and judge whether she was one of the nutbag Targaryens like her father, or one of the good ones like Rhaegar, before he revealed his identity and offered her his service.

[wolverine]

I didn't create the thread to bitch and complain, just to sort out the differences between the book and show. Is it really that crazy to enjoy knowing the differences? I find it interesting to know what they've changed and discuss the reasoning behind it. Sheesh. I actually liked the episode.

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Don't worry, it is good to have a unique place to discuss the differences. Even if some choose to use it to bitch about the changes and some use it to bitch about the people bitching about the changes.

[Melonica Stormborn]

Personally, I try my best to separate the books from the show. Bringing my expectations to the show is just a sure way to disappoint myself. It also helps that I saw S1/S2 first before I marathon-ed the books. Without factoring the books, it’s quite a good show.

That said, I’m worried that all these changes will catch up with D&D soon. The characterizations now seem off because of plot deviations/simplifications, most notably for Jon Snow. They’re making him a badass alright, but a different badass from the badass we know and love. I got his reasoning with Mance and think it’s acceptable, but the book reason is better for me. While reading I thought that Mance did not actually believe the bastard reason and was just humoring Jon, but still, the bastard angle was very much downplayed when it’s such a huge chip on Jon’s shoulders. This will affect how his future LC position will look like (although it would tie it to his move to let the wildlings through the Wall), even his reluctance to accept Winterfell from Stannis. I guess the warg plot is out of the story for now? I wonder how they’ll reconnect it in the future. We have Orell but it does not really mean anything with regards to Jon’s own ability which hasn’t been discovered in the show.

Tormund and Mance – characterization also off, so far. I was waiting for Tormund to request Mance to mention his titles, lol. We have a whole season to see how they will make it work so I’m hopeful.

I loved the Arya/Tywin scenes so I’m willing to pay the price for that (the price of not seeing Roose leeching around town). Now that Roose is in Harrenhal, I think things can go as expected or at least close, the important thing really is to make sure he’s in charge when Jaime and Brienne arrive. I will miss Vargo’s lisp but Locke and Qyburn could easily fulfil his role.

This Talisa-Jeyne Westerling thing going on better have a good payoff since Robb’s motivations for breaking his betrothal are significantly different. Yes, the Robb and Cat we know and love are now lost in translation.

I would have loved it if Strong Belwas was there, but I didn’t mind how it turned out. I kind of expected it, too although I was hoping that they would go with the Arstan = Barristan ploy. We know he’s Barristan so as an audience I thought it would be cool if we see the fall out following Dany’s discovery of the ruse.

I thought the nose joke by Cersei was pretty funny if one got the reference; also liked the emphasis on the letter Tywin was writing, it was ominous.

I like where they are going with Margaery so far. Her characterization is quite in line with what I imagined her to be, especially as the granddaughter of Olenna.

Actually, if they can’t sustain the budget, S4 would be a good ending point - open-ended but with enough closure. Then they can restart with AFFC and ADWD if there’s a reboot.

[Pinkie Baelish]

They might have a chance to insert the bastard story later on in the season. Since Hinds is one of the more well-known actors, I expect him to be getting a lot of screentime, and that probably means more scenes with Jon. They could have his story about the wildling cloak, and then have Mance ask Jon why he joined the NW. Jon could then use the bastard story.

[franko99]

Am I the only one who thinks Ghost staying with the NW is not a bad change?

In the books he didn't do anything, actually Ghost separates from Jon before the cave scene, only to return after Stannis offers Winterfell to Jon. Staying with the NW we may see him kick some wights ass on the way to Castle Black, and (in a way) show that part of Jon stays with his brothers all along

[Khal Porno]

Am I the only one who thinks Ghost staying with the NW is not a bad change?

In the books he didn't do anything, actually Ghost separates from Jon before the cave scene, only to return after Stannis offers Winterfell to Jon. Staying with the NW we may see him kick some wights ass on the way to Castle Black, and (in a way) show that part of Jon stays with his brothers all along

It doesn't bother me either. I don't know why it's irked so many people. I thought it was awesome that Ghost came to Sam's rescue.

I think it may be that Ghost will stick with Sam and that will be how he gets back to the wall, until he's reunited with Jon (physically) when he returns.

[insertname]

Well the problem with it is that imo, Jon being a warg was a good part of the reason why he was accepted into the wildlings. That change, coupled with the pretty flimsy reason he gave Mance makes it a bit unbelievable. But it doesn't bother me that much, it still works this way.

[Mappy]

Like any show/movie based on a book series, you have to be able to separate the two and not expect a show/movie to follow along exactly as the book depicts.

Yes, for those of us who are major fans of the books there will always be some disappointment in the changes that are made, but the show is still excellent.

I welcome the changes GoT are making as long as they aren't too off the wall insane. I fully believe that major plot points; like the Red Wedding, Jamie loosing his hand, Bran and the Reeds, to name a few, will all still be included.

It is my understanding that SoS was to be broken up into two seasons so these major plot lines will still be included on the show.

[Reposado]

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Don't worry, it is good to have a unique place to discuss the differences. Even if some choose to use it to bitch about the changes and some use it to bitch about the people bitching about the changes.

you'd think people bothered by others discussing changes from teh book would have the sense not to pen a thread titled "book deviations"

[Waylin Stark]

Do you guys still think Shae is going to betray Tyrion?

I'm hoping she does, because it's supposed to be a major blow for Tyrion which changes him. But they've got Shae being all lovey-dovey with Tyrion and being BFFs with Sansa, which is why I'm fearing they'll avoid the betrayal. Also TV Tywin's less of an asshole, and I can't see Shae in Tywin's bed happening. But if they do it, it will come off spectacularly, because we're being led to believe Shae loves Tyrion, making the betrayal more powerful.

With the introduction of Ros, I think they might change some stuff.

Maybe Cersei will capture Ros, thinking she's Tyrion's whore (in the books it was Alyalya I think).

Or maybe Shae gets jealous of Tyrion and Sansa.

Or maybe Ros and Littlefinger will betray Shae to Tywin/Cersei.

Or maybe Tywin will kill Shae ("I'll hang the next whore I find in your bed"), revealing it to Tyrion on the last night, causing Tyrion to kill him.

I don't know, but they have two seasons to stretch it out. They'll definitely expand that subplot, but I don't know in which direction. We'll have to wait and see.

[Cas Stark]

It may be they aren't going to have Tyrion kill Shae in the show...they've made a lot of characters nicer, possibly they think murdering her will be too much, they may even have his father kill her? as more motivation for him to kill Tywin.

[Drowningfish2304]

My only confusion with the episode is the way they've gone so far into Dany's storyline so quickly, without even giving any glimpses of Arya, Bran and Jaime's storyline at all, when I remember Arya and Jaime's storylines possibly being the largest storylines of the 'A Storm of Swords' book.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Sam not getting off the ravens and ghost not being with Jon were my big nitpick moments. I really think that it is important to show Sam is more capable than he thinks he is. The part where he lets the ravens fly without messages always made me smile.

I missed Dalla and Val with Mance. I can see why they are doing the LF story the way they are. The other deviations are minor and I can live with them.. I just hope they set the Roose storyline up correctly.

[Risha]

As I live in a house with all non-book-readers, I enjoy these “deviations” threads as a way to appreciate the show for itself, not as a way to bash D & D. I like to see how D & D see the story/character developments and how they shuffle characters/events around (and invent new ones or show off-book moments that only existed in the readers’ heads) to arrive at the visual version of the same basic story. It’s the ultimate, super-expensive, multimedia, collaborative, community-wide fan fiction homage!

And, after seeing the piece of trash being marketed as “The Hobbit Part I” I applaud D & D for sticking as close to the source material/spirit of the story as they have…keep that thing in mind when you’re tempted to whine about what they left out or added!

To the poster (can’t seem to find the post) who said that Kit Harington needs to step up his game: I’m with you, brother! Flat, flat, flat. Will hate to see Richard M go…

[Cas Stark]

As I live in a house with all non-book-readers, I enjoy these “deviations” threads as a way to appreciate the show for itself, not as a way to bash D & D. I like to see how D & D see the story/character developments and how they shuffle characters/events around (and invent new ones or show off-book moments that only existed in the readers’ heads) to arrive at the visual version of the same basic story. It’s the ultimate, super-expensive, multimedia, collaborative, community-wide fan fiction homage!

And, after seeing the piece of trash being marketed as “The Hobbit Part I” I applaud D & D for sticking as close to the source material/spirit of the story as they have…keep that thing in mind when you’re tempted to whine about what they left out or added!

To the poster (can’t seem to find the post) who said that Kit Harington needs to step up his game: I’m with you, brother! Flat, flat, flat. Will hate to see Richard M go…

That was me, I think. I'm glad I'm not the only one, if he wasn't good looking he would freaking fade into the scenery. I'm getting more and more worried that he's not up to it. Yes, i hope GOT propels Richard M. into a nice career, he deserves it. He is SO much more charismatic than Kit. And, a sister, but no matter.

[jmk51]

Its been so long since I read the book these are like cliff-notes versions to me. My thoughts on the changes

- Ghost - doesn't matter, but I wonder how much "warging" is going to be in the show? The direwolves are always around, but not doing much.

- Mance/wildings change - Will hold judgement on the Mance change, although some weirdo singing that turns out to be "King beyond the wall" might have been a little much for the TV audience. LOTR removed most of the singing, didn't seem to impact it. Guessing they introduce Val and the others in time - they really didn't introduce anyone else in the tent either.

- Harrenhall - Guess it was just a plot device to get Bolton there

- Selmy/Belwas - I'm guessing they get to the same point in the books without going through all the "mummery," so good enough. They've already hinted there is a spy in Dany's camp, and that masked chick seems to implicate him as well.

If D&D already know the end game of the book, I think the show will continue to deviate characters and plotlines will still hitting the major events. I can't think of anything now that can't be done that has been written.

[The Singer]

I don't like how they scrapped the Sansa escape storyline, that was one of the biggest twists/reveals in the books,. When Sansa boards the ship and sees LF and then Ser Dontos gets his "reward".

[Ser Loudmouth]

Very good point! I never thought of it like that. I'm curious how they're going to go about Dany finding out about Jorah now, and its rather upsetting that she's only going to be pissed with Jorah and not the both of them. Ohh well.

I suppose that Barristan will now spend most of the season proving himself to Dany, and at the end he will reveal Jorah to be the traitor as the final step in displacing him as Dany's right hand man

Disagree. Arya had to stay incognito, since revealing herself to Tywin would obviously return her to King's Landing. Barristan doesn't have much to lose by revealing himself. He's already exiled, and is begging Dany's forgiveness. Arya's reasons for staying incognito are far, far stronger than Barristan's.

Actually, in the books he did have a good reason to stay incognito, given how pissed Dany was when she found him out (at that point he had allready saved her life twice and still she was willing to execute him for betraying her father)

Anyway, the point was that Arya's arc proves that we can have a character keep a secret identity while the audience knows the real one, i.e. it's a kind of plot that will "work" on screen. It won't have the same effect as in the books, but it will create it's own kind of dramatic tension

The characterizations now seem off because of plot deviations/simplifications, most notably for Jon Snow. They’re making him a badass alright, but a different badass from the badass we know and love.

I do hope the show will make him a badass as it needs to set up his ascension to Lord Commander. So far in the show, it seems to me that Jon spent most of his scenes staring around him in confusion and making blunders.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I do hope the show will make him a badass as it needs to set up his ascension to Lord Commander. So far in the show, it seems to me that Jon spent most of his scenes staring around him in confusion and making blunders.

I hope it doesn't come to a point where we root for Bowen Marsh to off show-Jon . :P

[teemo]

Well the problem with it is that imo, Jon being a warg was a good part of the reason why he was accepted into the wildlings. That change, coupled with the pretty flimsy reason he gave Mance makes it a bit unbelievable. But it doesn't bother me that much, it still works this way.

can someone please tell me where in the books it talks about or implies that Jon being a warg is partially why he was accepted by Mance? I remember it, but I have no idea where it happened. I just re-read the part where they meet in the tent and it's not there.

I do hope the show will make him a badass as it needs to set up his ascension to Lord Commander. So far in the show, it seems to me that Jon spent most of his scenes staring around him in confusion and making blunders.

lol, I was kind of thinking the same thing. He always has a blank and/or forlorn look on his face and screws everything up. I'm interested to see how Kit Harington steps up his game too. I definitely don't want to be rooting for Bowen Marsh...that would be an epic fail. lol.