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[Book Spoilers] Battle of the Fist of the First Men


Dank Jedi

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I didn't expect to see the battle - just the aftermath - but I thought the television was broken when it opened to black. I was at first excited, then confused to see Ghost. Yay! Direwolf - wait, what?... and then the Sam didn't let the ravens bit. :bang: Whyyyy. I love Sam. I love how he let them fly if even messageless. That was beautiful writing for me. It's when you really begin to realize that, hey, Sam's not a craven and you're lucky to have him....

:agree: This was exactly my reaction!!

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Refer to my previous post (page 3). You don't really have a grasp on how expensive it is to shoot any kind of scene for this show in particular. Even if all they showed was Sam returning the camp and sending the ravens (no fighting, just the sounds of it as Sam finds the raven cage), then that involves, like you said, one to two dozen extras which is very costly, even more so if you add in named characters such as Mormont, Grenn, Ed and Rast. Then they would need to pay for animal handlers for all of the ravens, which would be a considerable amount or risk it looking underwhelming. Even then, I'm not entirely sure what the laws are with having animals on film sets in such extreme conditions. It might not even be possible for them to shoot ravens (or crows) legally in Iceland, so in that case they would need to do it as CGI, which is of course even more expensive. Then of course that scene I just described is much more shot/blocking intensive than we got, so that would extend the shooting hours/days.

I think it was pretty well written. The dialogue was pretty great and everything was in line with the characters from the show (and for the most part the book too). I also thought many of the decisions made to keep the costs down were pretty ingenius and worked on multiple levels. Like someone already said, Sam not sending the ravens gives him a more established arc for this season as well as keeping the costs down as we don't have to see him do it. The blizzard added some intensity to the scene and likely made it much easier to shoot once the steup was actually done. My only real complaint was that we didn't see how the hell Sam got away from that massive army of wights/white walkers, but the writers had the impossibly task of showing that without a massive army and at as low a cost as possible. Hopefully we'll get an explanation later on.

As for Mormont being unfair in his chiding of Sam for not sending the ravens, am I mistaken or did Grenn and Ed make it back to the fist in time for the battle? In that case, Sam could have too. It's only his fault that he fucked up and tripped, then decided to hide behind a rock. If he kept up with the other two then he could have made it to the Fist and sent the ravens.

I never said it wouldn't be expensive, I'm just saying that I think people elevate the battle to unattainable levels when I don't think it would be. Saying that it would be impossible to have ravens in Iceland is pure assumption and the cost of animal handlers for a couple of ravens would be no more than the cost of the animal handler for Ghost, so that in itself is not an additional cost. The CGI budget would not be much more than what we actually got as only a few closeups of Wights would be needed and tbh a couple of the CGI shots in this episode could easily be sacrificed in exchange for more CGI at the start. Replace the Manticore with a run of the mill assassination attempt, a couple less shots of the dragons and viola extra budget for the Fist. The only major cost would be the dozen or so extras.

As for the writing I felt that the scene felt a bit disjointed and it didn't really clearly explain what had gone on with the NW. And it failed to follow up on the promise made by the S2 finale.

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I think it was pretty well written. The dialogue was pretty great and everything was in line with the characters from the show (and for the most part the book too). I also thought many of the decisions made to keep the costs down were pretty ingenius and worked on multiple levels. Like someone already said, Sam not sending the ravens gives him a more established arc for this season as well as keeping the costs down as we don't have to see him do it. The blizzard added some intensity to the scene and likely made it much easier to shoot once the steup was actually done. My only real complaint was that we didn't see how the hell Sam got away from that massive army of wights/white walkers, but the writers had the impossibly task of showing that without a massive army and at as low a cost as possible. Hopefully we'll get an explanation later on.

A black screen with few battle cries is not good writing in my opinion. It is way too cheap (not only from the money view).

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I never said it wouldn't be expensive, I'm just saying that I think people elevate the battle to unattainable levels when I don't think it would be. Saying that it would be impossible to have ravens in Iceland is pure assumption and the cost of animal handlers for a couple of ravens would be no more than the cost of the animal handler for Ghost, so that in itself is not an additional cost. The CGI budget would not be much more than what we actually got as only a few closeups of Wights would be needed and tbh a couple of the CGI shots in this episode could easily be sacrificed in exchange for more CGI at the start. Replace the Manticore with a run of the mill assassination attempt, a couple less shots of the dragons and viola extra budget for the Fist. The only major cost would be the dozen or so extras.

As for the writing I felt that the scene felt a bit disjointed and it didn't really clearly explain what had gone on with the NW. And it failed to follow up on the promise made by the S2 finale.

Oh it most certainly would not have been at an unattainable level, jsut that it would not have been worth it. Having ravens in Iceland isn't just assumption, they're not native animals to that climate and they could seriously be in danger. The cost of having a handler for the wolf would have been much lower as they would have shot everything for the wolf in a studio in Ireland in front of a green screen, rather than in Iceland. Would have taken much less time and be less any extra costs for any extra expenses.

Impossible to say how much CGI they would use on the wights, they could have just used extras in prosthetics (or in costume like the axe-wielding wight we saw). Either way it would have been quite expensive to have a large amount on screen. I do agree that they could have cut out some of the other CGI shots in the episode and put the budget into the battle, but I think the budget was better spent elsewhere (with the exception of the manticore). Showing the battle, while being an awesome and heart-pumping introduction to the season, isn't really all that relevant in the long run. I think it's more important to show the giants and dragons, but that's just my opinion really.

Even not counting any of this, the fact is that adding in the battle scene would have required at least double the shooting time. I've heard they're pretty filled up so I'm not sure if they have the time in the schedual to add even an extra day or two to shooting.

A black screen with few battle cries is not good writing in my opinion. It is way too cheap (not only from the money view).

That's technically not the same scene as the one with Sam and co, so not the one I was talking about. :P

But yeah, I definitely wouldn't call it bad writing, I wouldn't call it great writing. It's just there to connect the end of last season to the beginning of this one. There's not a whole lot of leeway there with regards to writing it, considering the budget.

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You don't speak for me.

"WE" all didn't think it was a "gigantic letdown." Some of us thought it was AWESOME, including me, and all of my book and non-book friends.

You're only a majority on this site perhaps. There's a lot of happy people out there, and I'm meeting a lot of them on other sites who have grown tired of all the complaining here about every. single. thing. It's getting to be rather depressing.

There are a lot of people on this site, who just don't bother posting on these threads anymore because of all the constant whining, and stick to the ASOIAF/book threads.

Why do you bother watching the show at all, when you clearly hate it so much? SMDH

Do I know you? I clearly said people I know. Please show me how the hell you think I said Someone is very sensitive.

Im a book reader, i'm hyper critical of the show. Ill give credit where i think its dederved. I dont care about giving a pass to the show becausd of things like "it was rainy that day" or "iceland is too cold" or any of that crap.

This site probably isnt the best place to get all sensitive to show critiques considering that many of the posters have read the books multiple times before the tv show ever started.

As far as the show defenders go, they should love me. No way im not going to watch it.

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1. It was setup as the cliffhanger of season 2. It needed some sort of competent resolution, not Mormont and dozen extra's standing around holding a torch.

2. It needed to demonstrate to the audience the Night's Watch and possibly the realm as a whole was woefully ill prepared to deal with the White Walkers and their undead army. This threat, is the real danger to the realm, and not the petty conflicts South of the wall.

this exactly. it was an important scene to get right. the one that we got didnt need to be a grand battle, it would have been nice if it had seemed as if mormont and co had seemed to feel a little fear, haste, something

You're only a majority on this site perhaps. There's a lot of happy people out there, and I'm meeting a lot of them on other sites who have grown tired of all the complaining here about every. single. thing. It's getting to be rather depressing.

There are a lot of people on this site, who just don't bother posting on these threads anymore because of all the constant whining, and stick to the ASOIAF/book threads.

Why do you bother watching the show at all, when you clearly hate it so much? SMDH

ive suggested before that there should be a subforum for uncritical applause. until that happens, you will find that people here will make fair observations of the show, and some unfair ones

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I left season 2 thinking, "oh shit, how is Sam gonna escape this!?". After episode 1 of season 3, I still dont know. They didnt explain anything. Are we supposed to believe he just magically out ran all these zombies or they felt bad for him but yet try to kill him 2 min later?

Season 2 never should have ended like it did. It seems to me like they werent even thinking about how Sam would escape while they were filming season 2 and just said fuck it.

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Seriously? "Budgetary reasons aside???" :lmao:

Yes, of course, how silly. Because television productions cost nothing, and have to pay no one. Actors volunteer. FX houses do charity work because no way would the FX company who did Life of Pi be put up for auction because all the FX work is getting outsourced to China. Oh, and those Dragons were from the Westeros Animal Shelter.

:bang:

stop using "budget" as a crutch for piss poor performance.

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Oh it most certainly would not have been at an unattainable level, jsut that it would not have been worth it. Having ravens in Iceland isn't just assumption, they're not native animals to that climate and they could seriously be in danger. The cost of having a handler for the wolf would have been much lower as they would have shot everything for the wolf in a studio in Ireland in front of a green screen, rather than in Iceland. Would have taken much less time and be less any extra costs for any extra expenses.

They don't have ravens in iceland? How do they send messages? In any case we still don't know for sure whether or not ravens would have been allowed on set and if the worst came to the worst they could have just filmed Sam getting the ravens off in Ireland in like one day.

Impossible to say how much CGI they would use on the wights, they could have just used extras in prosthetics (or in costume like the axe-wielding wight we saw). Either way it would have been quite expensive to have a large amount on screen. I do agree that they could have cut out some of the other CGI shots in the episode and put the budget into the battle, but I think the budget was better spent elsewhere (with the exception of the manticore). Showing the battle, while being an awesome and heart-pumping introduction to the season, isn't really all that relevant in the long run. I think it's more important to show the giants and dragons, but that's just my opinion really.

Like I said in my previous posts we wouldn't need to have a load of fully CGI'ed and prostheticed up Wights on screen, the blizzard could act as a good means of disguising ordinary extras as Wights.

Now I agree that showing the Giants and Dragons is important. But the Giant would not have needed any CGI, I got the impression that was all just prosthetics and perspective shots and I'm damn pleased at how well that turned out. As for the dragons we could still show them, just not as much.

Personally I think that having an awesome and heart-pumping introduction to the season (especially after promising such) is important. The main complaint I've seen with this episode is that it was slow. Opening it with a bang like that along with a few tweaks elsewhere would have remedied that.

Even not counting any of this, the fact is that adding in the battle scene would have required at least double the shooting time. I've heard they're pretty filled up so I'm not sure if they have the time in the schedual to add even an extra day or two to shooting.

Well I'll admit that I don't know much about how pressed or not they were for time, though it seems unlikely to me that they couldn't squeeze in another couple of days. A source on shooting schedules would be nice if possible :) .

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The opening was a huge let down, specially given the cliffhanger finale we had at the end of season two.

Was Sam running away from the battle after hiding behind the rock, or was he running towards the Fist after the Wrights? I assume the latter, but we were given no clues as to why he would do that. If he was panting and saying to himself "I gotta send the Ravens", then we'd at least have some motivation for him running (the one thing he hates the most, except for everything else that hurts) towards the scene of a battle with undead. If he was running away from the battle, then how come Mormont and the crew found him?

I don't know how much it would have cost to at least show some clips, between the black screen, showing the men fighting undead, but they should have spent money on that. If that is more money than they have, they should get someone other than D&D to negotiate with the HBO exces.

At any rate, the guy deciding to spend money on Drogon roasting a fish and not a rotting bear standing on it's hind legs should be fired.

Other nitpicks;

I thought what had happened at Harrenhal could have been explained better. Looked like a battle? Would perhaps have been better if they found them all in the cells or pits slaughtered.

I doubt Bronn would have been able to kill two Kingsguard in full plate - even if they are sub-par knights and the TV version of Bronn has gotten a serious powerboost. I also kinda doubt Bronn or TV Bronn would even risk his life like that. What would he have gained from it, should he had managed to kill them?

I also didn't like the Barristan Kenobi / kid assassin switch that the director tried to pull on us. Might have worked better with non-readers though.

The rest of the episode was very good. Charles Dance continues to impress!

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They don't have ravens in iceland? How do they send messages? In any case we still don't know for sure whether or not ravens would have been allowed on set and if the worst came to the worst they could have just filmed Sam getting the ravens off in Ireland in like one day.

Like I said in my previous posts we wouldn't need to have a load of fully CGI'ed and prostheticed up Wights on screen, the blizzard could act as a good means of disguising ordinary extras as Wights.

Now I agree that showing the Giants and Dragons is important. But the Giant would not have needed any CGI, I got the impression that was all just prosthetics and perspective shots and I'm damn pleased at how well that turned out. As for the dragons we could still show them, just not as much.

Personally I think that having an awesome and heart-pumping introduction to the season (especially after promising such) is important. The main complaint I've seen with this episode is that it was slow. Opening it with a bang like that along with a few tweaks elsewhere would have remedied that.

Well I'll admit that I don't know much about how pressed or not they were for time, though it seems unlikely to me that they couldn't squeeze in another couple of days. A source on shooting schedules would be nice if possible :) .

Apart from the ravens (which I'm not entirely sure about and can't really be bothered to research), this is all from experience. I've obviously never worked on the show (although here's hoping :P) but I know roughly the costs of a lot of these things. They vary from country to country but generally not by too much. Iceland would have a larger general shooting cost considering they would need to pay for transportation, generators for any power supply, and extra grips to transport the equipment. Then on top of that you ahve the cost of CGI/extras and any professionals such as an armourer or stunt coordinators needed to actually do a battle. Having a blizzard wouldn't disguise stuff as much as you would think. It would have to be pretty thick in order to conceal a great amount, in which case you would have trouble seeing the actual subject of the frame.

As for scheduling, I know that a normal, professional film crew could film a 3-5 minute scene in a day or two, depending on its complexity. Given that Iceland has considerably short days during the time when they film, plus the fact that if it were a battle scene it would complicate matters - it would be adding a few extra days to the shooting. They've said that they're pretty much full up as far as schedule goes and that's why they can't do more than 10 episodes a season, so they may not be able to do a few extra days shooting logistically. I could be wrong there though.

This is all budget stuff anyway which is largely irrelevant. I know you're saying that they should have taken some of the budget from the rest of the season and put it here, and that may be true. We'll have to wait and see if there's any pointless, costly scenes in the rest of the season. If there is, then I'll agree with you. Like I said though, I thoguht the manticore maybe could have been removed, but obviously that's not gonna pay for the Battle at the Fist.

Glad you agreed about the giant though, he looked awesome. I thought they were doing them like the wolves (green screen and putting them over the shot), but it didn't look like it at all there.

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Personally I would have preferred they do the end of last season completely different. Have it be night time, back at the fist of first men with Sam and the others doing whatever there. Horn blows 3 times, Sam tells them that means the White Walkers, and either fade to black or have a bunch of blue eyed silloutes approaching the fist in the night.

Next season starts:

Frantic movement and panic around the camp. Mormont tells Sam to send the ravens, and he runs to go do that, but when he opens the cage they escape and fly off before he has a chance to attach the messages. Use the money saved from not showing the CGI undead "army" at the end of last season to show some of them advancing on the Fist even if it is just black shapes with blue eyes in the night. Fade to black as some one yells that they are being over run, and you hear Mormont yell to retreat, with screams and cries. Cut to Sam running thru the snow, and continue on similar to how the show actually did. They don't actually have to show any of the battle to do a much better job of implying what happened.

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I do have to wonder why, if Iceland was so expensive a troublesome did they choose to film there? It certainly looks very beautiful and cinematic, but it's not like there aren't other such places. Hell, Ireland can look pretty stunning itself and it looks a lot closer to Beyond the Wall does in the books. And indeed the scenes in the Haunted Forest where shot in Ireland and the Fist is supposed to be nestled within that. So I guess this can be blamed on D+D's decision to go with somewhere very pretty rather than somewhere practical and somewhat pretty. But even in Iceland I'd still say it could have been done, especially with that little tidbit about the ravens, thank you Elmis.

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Personally I would have preferred they do the end of last season completely different. Have it be night time, back at the fist of first men with Sam and the others doing whatever there. Horn blows 3 times, Sam tells them that means the White Walkers, and either fade to black or have a bunch of blue eyed silloutes approaching the fist in the night.

Next season starts:

Frantic movement and panic around the camp. Mormont tells Sam to send the ravens, and he runs to go do that, but when he opens the cage they escape and fly off before he has a chance to attach the messages. Use the money saved from not showing the CGI undead "army" at the end of last season to show some of them advancing on the Fist even if it is just black shapes with blue eyes in the night. Fade to black as some one yells that they are being over run, and you hear Mormont yell to retreat, with screams and cries. Cut to Sam running thru the snow, and continue on similar to how the show actually did. They don't actually have to show any of the battle to do a much better job of implying what happened.

Actually, that would be pretty creepy.

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Season 2 never should have ended like it did. It seems to me like they werent even thinking about how Sam would escape while they were filming season 2 and just said fuck it.

And where did that army go? Evaporated upon rooster crowing three times? Turned left and then left again to go back walking in circles for a few years the plot requires them again? :lol: If we are meant t believe that handful of NW brothers dealt with that army and the Walkers leading them, then why are they presented as a treat at all? If a group of unprepared freezing men took them out in a fight with a ratio 1:100(0)?

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How much more would it have cost for them to have bodies of NW men on the ground around the survivors, when Old Bear and Sam were talking? Honestly? Just to show that a slaughter occured?

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Well that part actually does make sense, because assuming that like the book they lost and retreated (though the show doesn't make that particularly clear) the bodies would be back on the fist, or reanimated as wights, not where ever they retreated to.

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