[Book Spoilers] Battle of the Fist of the First Men

[protar]

At the very least they could have shown images of the carnage at the fist. Or they could have had Sam come across the Zombear rather than a run of the mill wight. That still wouldn't solve the disjointedness of the scene but it would at least be impressive and probably wouldn't be too difficult to do with Bart the Bear and a greenscreen.

[shiola]

But how would any non-book reader know that they retreated? I just don't think the battle was adequately explained at all. I'm just happy I re-read aSoS before the season started.

[Tadco26]

No I agree that it wasn't explained well at all, but we almost have to believe they retreated, mainly based on what happened in the book, because if they didn't retreat it would imply they won.

[Daske]

Might be wrong, but I'm assuming there will be a much smaller scale confrontation still to come between the Night's Watch and Wights/WWs in the next episode or so, and we will see some of the fighting action there. If they couldn't afford the larger battle or multiple fights they may be going for the smaller scale one? Could be a running battle while retreating or an attack at Craster's. Maybe anyway.

[Lady KotLT]

My family have not read the books and were confused as to what happened there. My mum thought the Nights Watch won the battle and my Dad was still waiting for all the White walker's army to attack them. It wasn't explained well at all. It went from a black screen to the sun rising, the white walkers are suppose to come out at night but it wasn't clear, they could've at least said "we survived this night". They could've added Ravens and flapping wings to the sounds at the begining. I was expecting it to be a very dark terrifying opening scene at least.

[Tadco26]

Might be wrong, but I'm assuming there will be a much smaller scale confrontation still to come between the Night's Watch and Wights/WWs in the next episode or so, and we will see some of the fighting action there. If they couldn't afford the larger battle or multiple fights they may be going for the smaller scale one? Could be a running battle while retreating or an attack at Craster's. Maybe anyway.

There is a decent chance we will get some variation of the Sam the Slayer scene still, but I don't expect any thing bigger than that. Of course depending on how they do that it may be counter productive, because they just haven't made the white walkers that scary so far, or given enough clues for a non-reader to even say they didn't lose to the night's watch at the Fist beyond Mormont saying that if they didn't get back to the wall then everyone they knew would die. Without the slaughter at the fist of first men, Sam killing one may not seem like such a big deal and may even further reduce the sense of threat to the viewers.

[kevin1989]

Or another flash to black with some grunting and fighting sounds.

While I expected the fight to be cut for budget reasons I do think they did a very poor job making the White Walkers scary. Starting with having them walk right past Sam and ignore him in the daylight at the end of last season. I think that ending would have worked better at night with Sam watching at a distance. We didn't actually see the white walkers kill anyone, and as far as the show goes all we know for sure at this point is that one night's watch guy died and some how is holding his own head and one wight died to Mormont. They were much scarier in the season 1 prologue where you don't get as good of a look at them.

It's already know that the battle at the wall will be a bigger battle than BW.

And about the WW, Personally I found them scary.

[kevin1989]

At the very least they could have shown images of the carnage at the fist. Or they could have had Sam come across the Zombear rather than a run of the mill wight. That still wouldn't solve the disjointedness of the scene but it would at least be impressive and probably wouldn't be too difficult to do with Bart the Bear and a greenscreen.

You know that Jon is going to visit the fist next episode?

[protar]

You know that Jon is going to visit the fist next episode?

I do, but there seems little point in starting off so confusingly. It doesn't really add anything to the opening and left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouthes.

[shiola]

Sam the Slayer didn't happen at the battle at the Fist, so I don't know why people keep bringing it up. It happened after when they were walking back to the Wall, which is where the show is at now. Sam the Slayer will happen soon.

[Young Nan]

I left season 2 thinking, "oh shit, how is Sam gonna escape this!?". After episode 1 of season 3, I still dont know. They didnt explain anything. Are we supposed to believe he just magically out ran all these zombies or they felt bad for him but yet try to kill him 2 min later?

Season 2 never should have ended like it did. It seems to me like they werent even thinking about how Sam would escape while they were filming season 2 and just said fuck it.

Exactly! The white walker looked right at him. Was the WW was just like, fuck it, this dude is fat, me and these 500+ wights are just gonna ignore him? And why was ghost there?

Budget aside, the scene was poorly executed, didn't make sense, and ignored a majorly expensive cliffhanger from season two.

And to all those who claim budgetary reasons- I get it, they couldn't afford another big battle. But that doesn't mean they didn't missappropriate the budget on bullshit. The scene where Dany's dragon catches a fish was probably expensive, and could have been used for a minor battle, or at least SOMETHING other than a black screen.

Also, characters like "Ros". Imagine how much more time HBO could have if they didn't create an unecessary whore character whose sole purpose in the show is to have boobs, and show them. I guess they have to cater to the "i'm watching this show for the boobs" audience, but still.

Bad decisions, IMO.

[Tadco26]

Sam the Slayer didn't happen at the battle at the Fist, so I don't know why people keep bringing it up. It happened after when they were walking back to the Wall, which is where the show is at now. Sam the Slayer will happen soon.

It should happen soon, which is why I said we have a decent chance of seeing a variation of it still. The show has changed enough other things that I can't assume that there is no chance that they cut it or completely re-write it though.

[TRAVYS]

And where did that army go? Evaporated upon rooster crowing three times? Turned left and then left again to go back walking in circles for a few years the plot requires them again? :lol: If we are meant t believe that handful of NW brothers dealt with that army and the Walkers leading them, then why are they presented as a treat at all? If a group of unprepared freezing men took them out in a fight with a ratio 1:100(0)?

One not familiar with the books could easily come away with the impression the NW won the skirmish with the WW's. And why is the Lord Commander giving that speech there? Hasn't his ragged band of Black Brothers been together since escaping the Fist? Typical TV writing.

[kevin1989]

I do, but there seems little point in starting off so confusingly. It doesn't really add anything to the opening and left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouthes.

I think every smart person would have know that this was the best that they could have get. Wanted to get more is just ignorant imo. It's a TV show not a movie, even movies can't have the amount of action that people want this season, except maybe Peter Jackson.

About dragon scene: the dragons are in someway characters of the show, they need screentime before episode 4 to have some impact what will happen there. and about ross, She's covering a lot of other characters, so they safe some budget here.

About winning battle. The speech isn't there for nothing, Mormont clearly stated that they need to get south to warn them. Why warn people when they won? Next episode we will get some more info i guess, that the WW still lives etc. And maybe even that they only come when it's getting dark.

[Tadco26]

I think every smart person would have know that this was the best that they could have get. Wanted to get more is just ignorant imo. It's a TV show not a movie, even movies can't have the amount of action that people want this season, except maybe Peter Jackson.

No battle was expected by me, but to say that there is no way they could have handled it any better is certainly misleading. Part of the problem is how poorly they ended last season with Sam surrounded and inexplicably surviving.

Like I said earlier, personally I would have preferred they do the end of last season completely different. Have it be night time, back at the fist of first men with Sam and the others doing whatever there. Horn blows 3 times, Sam tells them that means the White Walkers, and either fade to black or have a bunch of blue eyed dark silloutes approaching the fist in the night.

Next season starts:

Frantic movement and panic around the camp. Mormont tells Sam to send the ravens, and he runs to go do that, but when he opens the cage they escape and fly off before he has a chance to attach the messages. Use the money saved from not showing the CGI undead "army" at the end of last season to show some of them advancing on the Fist even if it is just black shapes with blue eyes in the night. Fade to black as some one yells that they are being over run, and you hear Mormont yell to retreat, with screams and cries. Cut to Sam running thru the snow, and continue on similar to how the show actually did. It's hard to imagine a variation of that scene being THAT cost prohibitive since you wouldn't actually see a battle or even need detailed CGI for the White Walkers, just glowing blue eyed figures advancing in the dark.

Worst case scenario they could have just had Mormont fill in some of the blanks after killing the wight that was attacking Sam. Something like Mormont:"Sam your alive! We thought we had lost you when the walkers over ran us. Did you send the ravens out?"

Sam: "NNNooo.. I was with Gren and Dolorous Ed and then the wights surrounded me. I hid and luckily they passed me by. I have been running ever since."

Mormont: "We lost most of our force when the White Walkers attacked, and they are still pursuing us. Since you weren't able to send out any ravens, we need to get back to the wall as soon as possible or everyone we know will die."

They don't actually have to show any of the battle to do a much better job of implying what happened.

[Ampris]

My family have not read the books and were confused as to what happened there. My mum thought the Nights Watch won the battle and my Dad was still waiting for all the White walker's army to attack them. It wasn't explained well at all. It went from a black screen to the sun rising, the white walkers are suppose to come out at night but it wasn't clear, they could've at least said "we survived this night". They could've added Ravens and flapping wings to the sounds at the begining. I was expecting it to be a very dark terrifying opening scene at least.

Exactly, like I said yesterday - if you haven't read the books there's no way you would have any clue what just happened. I have read the books and I was still confused at first as to what this scene was supposed to portray. When I realized that it was after the battle all I was left with was a "wtf?!" feeling. Bodies, dialogue, whatever - SOMETHING could have been used to indicate a battle had occurred.

[a free shadow]

I think every smart person would have know that this was the best that they could have get.

Not in the truthful and believable narration departament. :P I think they just enjoyed themselves with a big scene in the end of last season, but had no smarts how to follow up. :P

[Runaway Penguin]

About winning battle. The speech isn't there for nothing, Mormont clearly stated that they need to get south to warn them. Why warn people when they won? Next episode we will get some more info i guess, that the WW still lives etc. And maybe even that they only come when it's getting dark.

It ain't that clear. Was there a battle? Did Mormont et al just sortie out to get Sam out? Did the zombies pass by? Did they attack?

Of course I know what was supposed to happen, I did read the book, but the scene was pretty unclear.

[Lady KotLT]

Exactly, like I said yesterday - if you haven't read the books there's no way you would have any clue what just happened. I have read the books and I was still confused at first as to what this scene was supposed to portray. When I realized that it was after the battle all I was left with was a "wtf?!" feeling. Bodies, dialogue, whatever - SOMETHING could have been used to indicate a battle had occurred.

I know Ghost being there really threw me. I had to explain to my family what had happened at the fist afterwards because they were looking for all the Wights and WW.

I suppose they are waiting for us to see the aftermath when Mance and Co get to the fist... This is the first time i'm watching the show after reading the books, it will be an interesting season(my poor tv is going to bare the brunt of it though :box: )! I do think the opening could've been better though.

[Delmas]

the scene was bad