[Book Spoilers] Battle of the Fist of the First Men

[zaphodbrx]

What struck me about this scene was that Sam managed to run away while being surrounded by hordes of zombies last season ( protected by plot armor? ) And then Mormont asks if he sent ravens. Um, what? How could he send ravens while surrounded by hordes of zombies.

[Runaway Penguin]

As far as carnage goes, if they took half of "bloody body" extras from Harrenhall scene and shifted them to FotFM scene, it would be much more convincing. Especially if some of them begun to rise with blue eyes... As it is, there was far mopre carnage in the limited scene with two or three others in Season 1 prologue :)

[a free shadow]

Personally I liked the way that they didn't show the battle. That way it remains a mystery how they fight, and it will be more epic once the real battle with the white walkers occure. And for not showing that there was a battle. People have blood over their face, and I liked it that you don't see the body's before Jon's chapter. If they had shown the battle, people would be moaning about that scene, because "we already know, there was a battle, people died."

I am good with no battle shown. I find it funny (in an amusing kind of way so far), how they could not resist showing hundreds and thousands of wights being purposefully led by the White Walkers as a cliffhanger of the season, just to fallow up with that army evaporating at the beginning of the next episode. I do not need to be shown how a small group of unprepared freezing men took out each of those thousands of wights and some Walkers, but I would like to at least hear something being said to explain this kind of outcome, where NW is still standing after that kind of force came onto them. Now, on the contrary, Mormont announces doom to "everyone who has ever lived". As a viewer, I can not see why it is so, when what I am being led to understand is that a handful of not the best kind of warriors defeated the WW army to the ratio 1:100(0) and behind the Wall of all places, which should be the homebase for the WW.

How do you even kill a Walker, which is supposed to be invincible? Or did they just ran?

What we were shown, is a very bad fallow-up story-wise. They simply could not resist that scene in the end of last season, like overeating on sweets. It should have been clear (and was, for the book readers, I think), that they just won't be able to solve it believably. Now it is a fact that they didn't. And that is wrong to a point where it does not quite bother you too much, but makes you wonder, if we'll be having George Clooney playing Talisa's father, just for the “visual effect” on women :P

I really need to fact check, the wights seem to have left Sam alone as he had no weapon drew.

He did not draw a weapon when the axe wielding wight attacked either. And what was it with that wight? He seemed much quicker and much more determinated than the snail army we've seen last season :lol:

[kevin1989]

As far as carnage goes, if they took half of "bloody body" extras from Harrenhall scene and shifted them to FotFM scene, it would be much more convincing. Especially if some of them begun to rise with blue eyes... As it is, there was far mopre carnage in the limited scene with two or three others in Season 1 prologue :)

True, a bad that the scheduling was difficult and the scene at Harrenhal was shot first. I hope that season 4 will have more budget.

@Free shadow: Those answers will be coming this season, probably all next episode. How many NW had died, how many wights. Are the WW still alive, how can they get killed. Some major things that will be answered later.

But maybe it was better if they just left out the battle at all. Not showing this scene and that viewers will get to know the answers as in the books. Or maybe everything will be falling in place next episode. But why need every answer be directly answered? Isn't it something beautiful that we get to see the aftermath of the battle, and have all those questions, and a episode later they will get answered.

But if you want the answers:

Jon will go to the fist with Mance en co, to witness the battle that happened there, there will be a lot of bodies. A lot of NW and a lot of wights. WW can be killed, you will know soon how, but they all survived the battle of the fist.

[juanml82]

The battle of the fist isn't as simple as hiring a bunch of extras, and doing a one-day shoot. It's humans fighting rotting CGI dead guys who aren't there. That's a lot of FX $$. You want this minor battle that's only told in flashbacks in the books, or do you want Dracarys? You can't have both.

But since you guy are all such international telelvision budget experts, perhaps you should launch a Kickstarter and forward the money to HBO along with spec scripts so you can have everything shot exactly as it is in all your heads, since you all seem to think with a hivemind and agree on how it should be perfectly shot. ;)

• D&D have said it's cheaper to take a unit to Iceland than to build a set like they need. Iceland saves money.
  
• There are only about six hours of daylight to shoot in Iceland. That is nothing considering most of it is spent setting up shots.
  

How many battles do you think this show needs? All of them? Or just the ones that actually appear in the books? *This one doesn't, it's told in flashbacks.

I suggest you watch both versions of Kingdom of Heaven, both the theatrical and the Director's Cut which has 45min of additional footage. One is a bunch of battles and makes no sense whatsoever, making the viewer think they've been abducted by aliens because of the lack of narrative. Whereas the director's cut actually tells an awesome story, and has more characters in it, that are actually important to the plot and main characters.

• I think we're going to find out what happened at the fist. Otherwise what would Sam and Gilly talk about?
  
• The lower they take Sam, the better his heroic moment will be.
  

You guys should watch the emmycast and listen to the commentary on the DVDs. It would answer a lot of your production and budget questions, and help alleviate your disappointment. It would also help make sense why this show on Premium cable and something like Walking Dead on commercial basic cable, should never ever be compared in any prodution universe, for they are as different as things on broadcast networks versus theatrical films.

it's a miracle we have this show. It shouldn't exist. It's Fantasy, it's unfilmable, and no network can afford it, not even a major commercial network.

Yet people are complaining about a battle that is really going to be a repeat of something bigger coming later in the story (we all suspect), that hasn't been written yet. Personally, I'd rather save that giant reveal for then, instead of having the baby version now. But that's just me.

As for the WW/wights leaving Sam alone, so? They left the ranger that deserts and Ned executes alone too. And they looked right at him also. So? It's established, that they do that. I don't see why people are acting like it's out of character somehow.

Yes I can. It might have flaws for you, but it doesn't for me. I'm not you. I probably don't like the music you like either. So? Not everyone is just like you.

You do not speak for me. You do not shape my opinion. I don't want to be part of your hive.

They can't, mostly for temperature reasons ("we have to stop filiming and get inside NOW, or you won't be coming in at all"), and they don't seem to haul lighting units out into the tundra. They explain a lot of that in the DVD commentary, and in the emmycast.

The way I picture a cheap battle, for instance, doesn't involve melee at all. Quick, closeup shots of men fighting in the dark. Quick, dark shots of wights approaching. We also know they had a set to make the scenes at Craster's keep, so that's an option again - again dark background. An HBO series can afford close up shots of actors against a dark background, probably the already used CGI blizzard to mud the shot somewhat.

Not quite as cinematic as the Danny scene at the ship? Probably. But certainly far more cinematic than voice overs in a black screen.

[Rayn]

True, a bad that the scheduling was difficult and the scene at Harrenhal was shot first. I hope that season 4 will have more budget.

@Free shadow: Those answers will be coming this season, probably all next episode. How many NW had died, how many wights. Are the WW still alive, how can they get killed. Some major things that will be answered later.

But maybe it was better if they just left out the battle at all. Not showing this scene and that viewers will get to know the answers as in the books. Or maybe everything will be falling in place next episode. But why need every answer be directly answered? Isn't it something beautiful that we get to see the aftermath of the battle, and have all those questions, and a episode later they will get answered.

But if you want the answers:

Jon will go to the fist with Mance en co, to witness the battle that happened there, there will be a lot of bodies. A lot of NW and a lot of wights. WW can be killed, you will know soon how, but they all survived the battle of the fist.

The dead should be raised as wights not laying there after the battle.

[Honey Badger]

It was handled weird for sure. You could only piece it together as a book fan with outside knowledge. I find it interesting that some TV viewers thought the NW won.

They should have shown Sam somehow hide from the passing Horde, then inch back to his camp. Through some exposition and chaos where he releases the crows, we get an update that things didn't work out and they need to run.

I wish they could have shown the battle at the hill top. The way they set up trenches and pallisades, the fire arrows raining down on advancing Others. The way they were overrun. They could have even shown a horse wedge charge into the fray against impossible odds. All awesome. Oh well, HBO doesn't show battles.

[Moët]

The budget doesnt matter,

You're right, how silly of me.

It's not like we're watching a 10-episode per season television show produced by humans on planet Earth, where things cost actual money, and time is limited.

You think the show is 100% perfect? That's irrational. No show is.

Then I'm the irrational one, because for me, it's perfect.

[Constantinος]

How is everyone so sure we won't see the battle in flashbacks? It seemed to me that Sam was in shock. Maybe they'll do flashbacks when he relays what happened to Gilly & is forced to deal with it himself for the first time. Did anyone from the show officially say they didn't film anything here? The build up at season 2 end...they'd have to know this would cause everyone to cry foul!

The show never had a flashback, so it is very unlikely (and wise) to they will be not a flashback. It is about "directorial" issues.

[Constantinος]

You're right, how silly of me.

It's not like we're watching a 10-episode per season television show produced by humans on planet Earth, where things cost actual money, and time is limited.

Then I'm the irrational one, because for me, it's perfect.

If you have no money to solve your problem then you should come with smart solutions for your problem. A black screen is not a solution. It is a rejection for the problem.

[Moët]

As far as carnage goes, if they took half of "bloody body" extras from Harrenhall scene and shifted them to FotFM scene, it would be much more convincing. Especially if some of them begun to rise with blue eyes... As it is, there was far mopre carnage in the limited scene with two or three others in Season 1 prologue :)

But they are already risen. Or do you mean other wights should drag dead bodies along like luggage to the fist? :)

How did the Fist battle work out? You set wights on fire, try not to get killed, and the handful (there were two in the finale) of WW probably split. My brain worked that out after Jon did in the first season. I'm not confused.

It was handled weird for sure. You could only piece it together as a book fan with outside knowledge. I find it interesting that some TV viewers thought the NW won.

The person I watched it with is a non-book reader, and pieced it together fine. The NW did win, in that there were survivors. We will hear more of this, it's not over. The details will spill out over a few episodes.

They should have shown Sam somehow hide from the passing Horde, then inch back to his camp. Through some exposition and chaos where he releases the crows, we get an update that things didn't work out and they need to run.

I wish they could have shown the battle at the hill top. The way they set up trenches and pallisades, the fire arrows raining down on advancing Others. The way they were overrun. They could have even shown a horse wedge charge into the fray against impossible odds. All awesome. Oh well, HBO doesn't show battles.

That scene would take a lot of time the series doesn't have. And I've yet to see a horse in any of the Iceland shoots. Probably way too dangerous for them, and too $$$$ for the insurance.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

^lol briefly read through this thread. How anyone can defend that scene is beyond me. The wight wiggling on the ground like in a third rate zombie movie, the inconsistency of how Sam is running back to tFoFM from wights and he is somehow supposed to send ravens in the process, completely omitting an opportunity for a great battle/horror scene, THE CHEESIEST LINE EVER spoken by Mormont. The producers should count themselves lucky that most people didnt vomit and switch the channel after this joke of a prologue. The episode had some nice points all in all (though i rather disliked it) but the first five minutes were the worst so far in all 3 seasons. After seeing the end of season 2 i was expecting this to be one of the highlights of this season. Again, cant believe how they wasted a scene with so much potential.

[Runaway Penguin]

Not all rose immediately, there is some "cooldown" time ;) Dead rangers rising would add to the horror and doom and gloom.

[Moët]

^lol briefly read through this thread. How anyone can defend that scene is beyond me. The wight wiggling on the ground like in a third rate zombie movie, the inconsistency of how Sam is running back to tFoFM from wights and he is somehow supposed to send ravens in the process, completely omitting an opportunity for a great battle/horror scene, THE CHEESIEST LINE EVER spoken by Mormont. The producers should count themselves lucky that most people didnt vomit and switch the channel after this joke of a prologue. The episode had some nice points all in all (though i rather disliked it) but the first five minutes were the worst so far in all 3 seasons. After seeing the end of season 2 i was expecting this to be one of the highlights of this season. Again, cant believe how they wasted a scene with so much potential.

Glad I don't go through life with your standards, I'd be miserable. But I get this means you're not watching the show anymore, since it's just so horrid, right? ;)

Not all rose immediately, there is some "cooldown" time ;) Dead rangers rising would add to the horror and doom and gloom.

LOL :D. Definitely a long "cooldown" time.... seems like it was a few days for the ones Ghost found.

[Tadco26]

Well I think this debate has about run it's course for me. Those who dislike it aren't going to change their minds, and those who think it is fine aren't either, and regardless it isn't going to change at this point.

To wrap up my thoughts on the topic:

1) I completely understand the need to cut the battle itself due to budget.

2) The ending of season 2 put Sam in a situation that was virtually impossible to rationalize how he would survive. Instead they just had Sam alive and running with no attempt at an explanation which didn't help. To be fair I can't think of an explanation that would have worked. Of course they should have thought of that when they were writing the season 2 finale.

3) They could have done a much better job of setting up what was happening before and after the flash to black "battle" that was skipped over. I listed several ways they could have done that without using a bunch of special effects or any actual scenes during the battle. Budget is always a valid reason for why some things don't make it in the show, but there is a middle ground between expecting a Lord of Rings Battle of Pelennor Fields scene, and showing a black screen where some viewers didn't even realize a battle took place.

4) Mormont expecting Sam to send ravens when he wasn't at camp didn't make much sense. Perhaps future episodes will better clarify what happened to Sam and what happened at the Fist, but regardless it was poorly handled in this episode.

The north of the wall story line has had problems for me since season 2 started, so I didn't expect a lot going in. Perhaps it is because my expectations were so low, but I enjoyed this premiere over all despite this scene being poorly executed. Debating what we like or don't like is part of the fun of the show and fortunately most of us can do that in a civil manner.

[Greywolf2375]

He did not draw a weapon when the axe wielding wight attacked either. And what was it with that wight? He seemed much quicker and much more determinated than the snail army we've seen last season :lol:

that's the problem I have with the scene. I am fine with not showing the fight, but they gave Sam an out by not fighting and being afraid, so when he is not fighting, being afraid and running he is now a target? There are some leaps that have happened where the response is "plot armor" as to why what would seem to be the logical conclusion doesn't happen and it really leaves a sour taste around those scenes.

[Drogo_1]

I just hope they include the later scene sam killing the other with dragonglass

[Honourable Ser]

Battles with CGI Snow Bears are very expensive.

I'm glad they saved the budget and are spending it on other things we can enjoy seeing i.e. Dracarys and the other battle that it looks like we'll see. And besides this, the shows strength is in the ability of it's lead actors to hold a conversation and develop the essential concept of the show - 'A Game of Thrones'

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Glad I don't go through life with your standards, I'd be miserable. But I get this means you're not watching the show anymore, since it's just so horrid, right? ;)

LOL :D. Definitely a long "cooldown" time.... seems like it was a few days for the ones Ghost found.

Of course i still watch, i am addicted of ASOIAF content. Doesn't change the fact that the show has massively declined since season 1 (which was near perfect imho, even according to "my standards" :P). I am not all critical, i loved the unsullied scenes, the Davos ones were pretty good, and i could watch Charles Dance impersonate Tywin forever. But you just CANT defend the fist scene, seriously that was such a disappointment to me. I dont need it to be a big battle, basically something along the climate of the prologue in first season would be very good. They botched it terribly instead.

EDIT: moved my response out of your quote lol

[Lord Godric]

it's a miracle we have this show. It shouldn't exist. It's Fantasy, it's unfilmable, and no network can afford it, not even a major commercial network.

Yet people are complaining about a battle that is really going to be a repeat of something bigger coming later in the story (we all suspect), that hasn't been written yet. Personally, I'd rather save that giant reveal for then, instead of having the baby version now. But that's just me.

Bravo, my friend!