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[Book Spoilers] Battle of the Fist of the First Men


Dank Jedi

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@Tadco26:

You know that they can't save money from a last season? you have a budget per season. If you don't use it all. You're not going to get what's left for next season. And yes they could handle it better. Maybe it was better to have cut when Sam saw the wights. And wait when Jon visited the fist next episode. We think they're all dead. Than we see that sam lives. But they need to write something.

Personally I liked the way that they didn't show the battle. That way it remains a mystery how they fight, and it will be more epic once the real battle with the white walkers occure. And for not showing that there was a battle. People have blood over their face, and I liked it that you don't see the body's before Jon's chapter. If they had shown the battle, people would be moaning about that scene, because "we already know, there was a battle, people died."

Did you watch the same episode, because as far as I heard, Mormont stated there was a big battle, and that most had died. As far as I know he isn't a liar. I think it's a beautiful thing we didn't had the battle. Now the Mystery remains. and showing the battle, would also made some thing worse, like when we have the big battle at the end of the series, we would have had, already saw that on screen boring.

But why not be happy, that they saved money for more important things? like the RW that doesn't have a second run in the show. A battle with the others we have.

I watched twice and I don't remember Mormont saying ANYTHING about a battle. All I remember is him asking Sam about the ravens and saying they needed to warn the Wall before everyone they've ever known is dead. Anyone else remember Mormont talking about a battle? HBO is still replaying it so maybe I'll go DVR it again and rewatch.

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No, Mormont didn't say anything about a battle but his face was kinda bloodied as was everyone else with him so it indicated some shit went down.

I thought they would have at least shown Sam sending the ravens while the battle was happening outside with a few quick shots of fire arrows being shot at the army of wights, then intro, then the retreat

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I doubt it's going to be that one. The season previews have Mance climbing The Wall, which makes me think they're going to leave out the Battle for the Wall completely. The battle for Castle Black or the Red Wedding will probably take a substantial amount of the budget.

it was tormund climbing the wall i believe
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I see where you guys are coming from, but I agree with the decision making here. Narratively speaking, this battle is not that important. Giants, dragons, werewolves and Jaime's hand are.

It probably was this or cut of Nicolaj's hand.

In that case why get everyone's hopes up by teasing the battle at the end of S2? They could easily have started off the season in exactly the same manner as SOS with the NW at the Fist hearing the horns. Then next episode they've been forced to flee into the Haunted Forest. Why make a promise they can't keep?

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I don't really mind the absence of the actual battle, but i didn't really like the linking with the second season's ending; i mean, the scene looked like it was showing what was happening immediately after the battle,before the beginning of the retreat towards the Wall, and it didn't sound like everything was in place (Is the battle over ? Since how long? Where the hell was Sam running to ? ) ;IMO it would have been better if they started in the middle of the march as in the books.

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Well I think this debate has about run it's course for me. Those who dislike it aren't going to change their minds, and those who think it is fine aren't either, and regardless it isn't going to change at this point.

To wrap up my thoughts on the topic:

1) I completely understand the need to cut the battle itself due to budget.

2) The ending of season 2 put Sam in a situation that was virtually impossible to rationalize how he would survive. Instead they just had Sam alive and running with no attempt at an explanation which didn't help. To be fair I can't think of an explanation that would have worked. Of course they should have thought of that when they were writing the season 2 finale.

3) They could have done a much better job of setting up what was happening before and after the flash to black "battle" that was skipped over. I listed several ways they could have done that without using a bunch of special effects or any actual scenes during the battle. Budget is always a valid reason for why some things don't make it in the show, but there is a middle ground between expecting a Lord of Rings Battle of Pelennor Fields scene, and showing a black screen where some viewers didn't even realize a battle took place.

4) Mormont expecting Sam to send ravens when he wasn't at camp didn't make much sense. Perhaps future episodes will better clarify what happened to Sam and what happened at the Fist, but regardless it was poorly handled in this episode.

The north of the wall story line has had problems for me since season 2 started, so I didn't expect a lot going in. Perhaps it is because my expectations were so low, but I enjoyed this premiere over all despite this scene being poorly executed. Debating what we like or don't like is part of the fun of the show and fortunately most of us can do that in a civil manner.

1. Completely agree

2. Agree it seemed contrived.

3. I didn't expect them to show the battle but the way they handled it left me confused.

4. The whole Mormont speech to Sam had me upset because Sam did get them out albeit without messages. I don't see why that couldn't have been explained and I think it changes Sam's character. What it really does is make me worried if we are going to see Sam the Slayer at all. Not to be negative, but it wouldn't be the first time we saw major character changes. I've heard Catelyn will be doing a 'I love Jon' speech. Chilling. That's not Cat. Sam is surprisingly useful and together. That's why I love him. Making him completely useless is just. Ugh. No need.

I agree we are lucky there is a show. But. I personally don't know if I will continue watching if they have complete character assassination on a broad scale. I get they can't show ever bloody battle. I can get my chills from the books again. One missing CGI bear isn't going to ruin my day as long as they show Brienne's bear- that one moves the character along. All they needed to do was show the fear through the reactions of the characters that they had. And leave ghost with Jon. But. Oh well. Hopefully it will get better.

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Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, as I have not read all the posts in this thread, but I just had an idea.

Since Ghost is with the survivors of the NW beyond the wall and not with Jon, maybe we will get some sort of flashback of the battle through Ghost's eyes when Jon sees the remnants of the fight? This would help introduce the non-book readers more to warging as well. I feel like this could help tie everything up nicely as to what happened at the Fist along with adding an integral part of the story into one scene. Thoughts?

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Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, as I have not read all the posts in this thread, but I just had an idea.

Since Ghost is with the survivors of the NW beyond the wall and not with Jon, maybe we will get some sort of flashback of the battle through Ghost's eyes when Jon sees the remnants of the fight? This would help introduce the non-book readers more to warging as well. I feel like this could help tie everything up nicely as to what happened at the Fist along with adding an integral part of the story into one scene. Thoughts?

Can't see it myself.

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The cost for a ghost flash back of the battle would be just as prohibitive as showing the battle live and probably even more difficult to film the whole battle thru Ghost's eyes. I can't recall them doing any flashbacks so far, and I would not expect them to do a Ghost flash back. I expect the only further follow up to the story line will be Mance and Jon visiting the Fist and whatever aftermath of the battle is left behind.

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In that case why get everyone's hopes up by teasing the battle at the end of S2? They could easily have started off the season in exactly the same manner as SOS with the NW at the Fist hearing the horns. Then next episode they've been forced to flee into the Haunted Forest. Why make a promise they can't keep?

To hook the audience by showing them the others, of course.

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4) Mormont expecting Sam to send ravens when he wasn't at camp didn't make much sense. Perhaps future episodes will better clarify what happened to Sam and what happened at the Fist, but regardless it was poorly handled in this episode.

For non-readers probably meant nothing at all, like, "why is everybody outside scolding on him for not sending the ravens?" or worst, "what ravens?".

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Everything's said. But not by me!

BookSam is a great character for the important deeds he is capable of, despite his obvious "flaws". The show is ruining that to fit the average TV-viewers' stereotypes, I assume. The fat comic-relief/ side-kick character Sam, existing only to show the greatness of others by contrast. (Boring.)

Similarly, another interesting character edge was blunted: Jon actually not being (that) bitter about being a bastard, but cleverly playing with the prejudices of Mance. Now, I can't see a budget reason to cut out the BookJon's pretend reason to desert. In fact I can't see any reason to do that, except introducing Jon's motives that will first be appearing in ADWD (not fighting Wildlings, but Others), already now. Which means, that in his heart TVJon has deserted the NW and his whole internal struggle will be cut out (except the sex-scenes with Ygritte of course. It's HBO, duh.).

That both is very sad, as I always got the sense from the book, that everything happening in King's Landing and related matters are just a distraction from the really important things going on in Westeros. Now the maybe most important characters for the story as a whole are reduced to Hollywood stereotypes, in a way.

However, the TV show doesn't delete the books but is a nice extra. So I can sit back and enjoy the tremendously great acting of the Lannister family and a few others and just ignore what they patch together in the North (including the casting of the Lord of the Bones and Mance. Didn't really fit the characters of devious, scraggy Rattleshirt and the lute playing, "Abel the bard" Mance.)

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Yea, I didn't expect to see the battle either. I expected them to do something like this, but I agree it was pretty cheap.

In stead of a black screen and some screams in the background, they could've showed us flashes of the battle. At least something to make clear that there was a battle, and that the NW lost a lot of men.

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Hi all,

The show just started over here in Spain and thus I reach you with a week of delay. Did not want to read here before, afraid of possible major spoilers.

Well, here I am now, careful to avoid S3E2 threads which I have not yet seen.

Anyhow. After watching the season premiere I came away with a sweet-sour taste in my mouth and lo and behold there is this very thread here ready to channel my grievances.

Most has been already been said here by one or another but I have to vent :)

I have not read the books and I have to heavily agree that, before reading some posts here, I was of the distinct opinion that the Nightwatch had indeed beat back the thousands of undead and white walkers and that Samwell reached the victorious few survivors of the Watch.

I could not make any sense, and still can not, even after reading this thread, as to why would Samwell still be alife given the ending of season two. A White walker was mere feet away from him, he looked down on him and when you see the camera pan off for the panoramic view of the undead army you can see Samwell was in the very midst of its advance towards the Fist of the first men, with wrights walking past him left and right.

How on earth did he manage to get out of this situation?

Being used by now at the way HBO deals with the big battles I did not expect really any climatic engagement being shown and was not surprised (a bit disapointed for the weak choice though) by the black scene with the battle sounds. I must admit I was also one of those who thought my TV set had crapped out on me.

So...I understand and have digested the budget line but still the whole thing, worse being this the bloody premiere, reeked of pure amateurism and lack of basic respect for the viewer.

How did Samwell survive/escape? If the NW was defeated and retreated, how did Samwell find them through the undead army? Why, oh why, would the Lord Commander chastise Samwell for not sending the crows? What crows? Was Samwell not sent to dig up dung to burn? How can he do two things at once? And given this situation, why would Samwell not have objected at such unfair treatment?

I just can not understand how this scene went to the premiere episode unchallenged. Its outright insulting to our intelliegence and I do not believe I´m nitpicking here. One can but hope that sometime down the line there will be an Extended collector Bluray that will include deleted scenes or a remake for this crap.

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