[Book Spoilers] Battle of the Fist of the First Men

[nubreed000]

couldn't they have shown Sam bursting into the tent with all the ravens, unlocking all the cages and sending them off, all the while there's screams, blood splattering, death and so forth going on outside/off screen? Then insert a few quick flashes of people getting cut down by Others while fading to the Fist of the First Men in the aftermath the next day (ie. bodies and blood everywhere)...then go to the main intro, and follow the intro with Sam's current scene with the White and Ghost. Would it cost a little more? Ya probably, but at least viewers wouldn't be suckered into thinking a big battle was going to happen, and there wouldn't be any confusion as to what actually transpired. And it would also send the message that the Nights Watch got destroyed and the Other threat grows even bigger.

I'm no TV production expert but if I built up a cliffhanger of an ending like that at the end of season 2, I'd at least attempt to give some sort of closure to viewers, and not going for a cop-out like they did with a black screen.

And how the hell did Sam survive anyways?

f$%&!! lol....I need to stop coming to this forum. I hate this show whenever I do, and the producers have their heads up their asses half the time.

[kevin1989]

Well, i, aling with everyone else I know had no idea about their budget probs. we all thought the scene was a gigantic letdown. At least no one I know is gonna stop watching (definitely not my critical self).

You are definitely championing a large minority my friend!

that's the point, before you complain about something, first look at the facts. :)

Didn't mean it rude, but personally it's annoying if everything the books are popping up. This is the tv show not the books. Yes is sad the battle wasn't in it, but everyone could have know that when season 2 ends that this was the way it was going to be, it's not the writers fault that people expect to much. Maybe I'm just too much in GoT that I found every thing I can found about it ^^

And yes they could have done it differently. Personally I think the problem lies with the way is devided at the writing table. Personally I'm a fan of deviding the writing in the scenes that are needed, some are great by putting a cheap major fighting scene on screen and others are more for love scenes etc. (Like sometimes with Lost another writer helps a writer because there needed to be a scene for a certain character etc)

Personally how I would have done the scene (if there were a little more budget):

Was a scene after Sam was rescued. That Grenn would have saved Sam and that they were trying to find the others. There wasn't need of more burning, because Sam and Grenn (or dolores) could walk and see some dead wights on the floor (easily copying the other one) and than they were back at the group. would have been 30 seconds more.

But still great scene imo, maybe not as the scene after the cliffhanger, but if the cliff of season2 was the end of episode 1 of this season and this was the beginning of episode 2, it was a great scene.

[Nifft the Lean]

I didn't care if they kept to the book or filmed much in the way of a battle. I doubted they would show how Sam managed to survive. However, what they delivered did not do justice to the massive jeopardy situation that they set up at the end of last season. It is not unreasonable to expect they would devote a bit of effort to the aftermath given what they left us on.

I don't get the excuse of budget constraints because even with the fade to black they could have added more sounds with orders to retreat & they did not have to go to Iceland to show some black coats buried under some fake snow with liberal red stains. Even when Sam came up on the regrouping a better verbal exchange could have helped (including leaving out questioning Sam about why he didn't magically get to the crows to send them off). IMO even that would have been more satisfying. However, I do think the fact that they filmed in Iceland, added Ghost to a scene he was not needed etc argues that they had plenty of money to have done something that told the story better.

As a few other people have said my non-book friends had problems with what happened too. As it stands you could think the NW won, there was no battle or the enormous host of wraiths/Others largely ignored the NW to march on the Wall/Kingdoms...

It did feel cheap, hooking you in like a spaghetti western: episode end with hero falling off cliff.... how does he survive?.....next episode begins hero was not actually at the cliff....

[Ampris]

Honestly if I hadn't known what had happened in the book I wouldn't have even known from the episode that a battle had occurred. Everyone is saying it's a letdown, lame, etc but to me it just really made no sense. The survivors could have at least mentioned "Hey Sam, while you were cowering behind a rock we just fought off an undead army" or some such.

[A Winters Summer]

:agree:

I'm not upset in the least.

The audience has had ten months to imagine in their head what that battle would be like, book and non-book readers alike. Not even a James Cameron/Peter Jackson coproduction budget could match what's in your head, so why waste time and money on it when there are far more important battles, dragons, more story, and more characters to spend that time and money on?

Opening with a black screen (so you can imagine 10 months of thinking up all that magical stuff in your head which is always better and more scary anyway), was perfect.

You want dragons, more story, more characters, more fx? Or do you want the battle at the Fist that you'll hate and complain about anyway beause "it's not like the book" or "it's not what I imagined"? Make a choice, because it's TELEVISION, yes, I know it's HBO, but it's still television, and you can't have both.

How many battles that involve The Watch do you think they need anyway? If they show all of them, it will get very repetitive. It will also spoil

whatever George has in mind for the Walkers later in the story.

Whatever it is, it will be big, and shouldn't lose it's impact.

Maybe Sam will tell Gilly about it, and we'll get the story that way. If we have both, it will be repetitive, but telling Gilly gives them a scene they need.

We don't need to see it, because what you can imagine in your head is always better anyway. We're going to get battles. Lots of them. You're not going to get every single action and character in the books. If that's what you're expecting, stop watching unless you like being continually let down.

Try letting go of your expectations and just enjoy the best show on television. Shows this good, (with this budget and source material) are rare. But hell, maybe HBO will decide it's not worth it after all and pull the plug. Then you won't have it to let you down anymore.

Nope. I agree with King Cheops.

Ghost will find Jon. He's Ghost. He's not some stupid puppy who hangs out with people who have food. There will be ravens. So many people are acting like every detail needed to be in the first hour of ten. There are nine more episodes to tell this part of the story.

100% agree. If you want the battle of the fist, then read the scene in the books with the audio from the black intro.

[Lord Kyle]

Can't believe some people are saying they aren't in the least bit let down by the lack of any kind of Slaughter at the Fist of the First Men. The Slaughter, while told in flashbacks, is easily one of the most frightening sequence in the books thus far, not the most epic or has the most action, but the most frightening.

I had a strong feeling it wouldn't be included, but I didn't know they'd handle it that poorly. . .

[Winter's Prince]

It doesn't matter because in season four we will see a huge battle: the Battle of Castle Black

[Tadco26]

It doesn't matter because in season four we will see a huge battle: the Battle of Castle Black

Or another flash to black with some grunting and fighting sounds.

Can't believe some people are saying they aren't in the least bit let down by the lack of any kind of Slaughter at the Fist of the First Men. The Slaughter, while told in flashbacks, is easily one of the most frightening sequence in the books thus far, not the most epic or has the most action, but the most frightening.

I had a strong feeling it wouldn't be included, but I didn't know they'd handle it that poorly. . .

While I expected the fight to be cut for budget reasons I do think they did a very poor job making the White Walkers scary. Starting with having them walk right past Sam and ignore him in the daylight at the end of last season. I think that ending would have worked better at night with Sam watching at a distance. We didn't actually see the white walkers kill anyone, and as far as the show goes all we know for sure at this point is that one night's watch guy died and some how is holding his own head and one wight died to Mormont. They were much scarier in the season 1 prologue where you don't get as good of a look at them.

[Moët]

I never understood why they went to Iceland anyways. The TV show makes the land north of the Wall look like the Arctic Circle and the Fist looks like a frozen lake.

Because as D&D have explained, it's actually cheaper to shoot on location than make a set. Besides, it looks AMAZING.

[Moët]

Well, i, aling with everyone else I know had no idea about their budget probs. we all thought the scene was a gigantic letdown. At least no one I know is gonna stop watching (definitely not my critical self).

You are definitely championing a large minority my friend!

You don't speak for me.

"WE" all didn't think it was a "gigantic letdown." Some of us thought it was AWESOME, including me, and all of my book and non-book friends.

You're only a majority on this site perhaps. There's a lot of happy people out there, and I'm meeting a lot of them on other sites who have grown tired of all the complaining here about every. single. thing. It's getting to be rather depressing.

There are a lot of people on this site, who just don't bother posting on these threads anymore because of all the constant whining, and stick to the ASOIAF/book threads.

Why do you bother watching the show at all, when you clearly hate it so much? SMDH

[teemo]

come on...budgetary reasons aside, they could have done SOOOOO much better than that. weak. it would have been one thing if it was a scene that came in the middle of the season...but it was the opener from where we left off in season 2's ultra-dramatic season finale, and this is what they came up with? Personally, I'm actually not too upset about it (although I think they could have put way more effort into it), but I totally understand why so many people are, both book readers and non-book readers.

[Moët]

come on...budgetary reasons aside, they could have done SOOOOO much better than that. weak.

Seriously? "Budgetary reasons aside???" :lmao:

Yes, of course, how silly. Because television productions cost nothing, and have to pay no one. Actors volunteer. FX houses do charity work because no way would the FX company who did Life of Pi be put up for auction because all the FX work is getting outsourced to China. Oh, and those Dragons were from the Westeros Animal Shelter.

:bang:

[teemo]

Sorry to piss you off so much, lol. I just think when the previous season ends on such a powerful note which makes people think shit is really going to go down with these WW they hadn't seen in ages, and are really dying to know what's next, that conclusion to it in the season premiere, is well...that. like i said, if they wanted to have cut it out for budgetary reasons, that's fine, but put it in the middle of the episode or something, not open up the whole season with that. Each season premier of GoT so far has had really strong openings before the theme song, and that wasn't one of them...take a xanax or something and chill :) didn't mean to offend you or come across like an idiot. i understand production costs money. i just think they did the very bare minimum there. I don't think that's the best they could have done, even on a tight budget.

[pleonasm]

Its a question of budget priorities. I think Benioff and Weiss made a big mistake in not allocating some time and money to this sequence. This episode alone was filled dozens (possibly a 100 or more) effects shots. Yes - Watching a dragon swoop down and snag a fish was "neat", but also expensive. Was it a must have? I do wonder. Especially when someone could have creatively put together a scary compelling scene to rival the prolouge sequence from the pilot.

I have two issues of them skipping the fight or showing a more detailed aftermath of the fight (folks running for their lives, chaos, etc...):

1. It was setup as the cliffhanger of season 2. It needed some sort of competent resolution, not Mormont and dozen extra's standing around holding a torch.

2. It needed to demonstrate to the audience the Night's Watch and possibly the realm as a whole was woefully ill prepared to deal with the White Walkers and their undead army. This threat, is the real danger to the realm, and not the petty conflicts South of the wall.

[Teren_Kanan]

I didn't expect the "battle" to be shown. But I certainly hoped for, and am disappointed by the lack of some horror elements of the scene. Why this is all happening during the daytime I will never understand (assuming filming there at night is difficult). It should be night time, too dark to see. At least toss some scenes out with brothers fleeing from unseen horrors, screams, maybe a quick few shots of zombies, glowing blue eyes in the distance. Just a quick scene of how awful that fight went from everyone. It didn't have to be an expensive CGI battle. Just some quick scenes of defeat and terror, barely taking up more time than the "black screen + battle sounds" did, and then move on to Sam running away.

The way it comes off in the TV show is that they fended off the undead hoard, and are now just standing around deciding what to do, instead of a madly fleeing the area as everyone is dying all around. The scene doesn't give off any urgency. And the Terror element is removed when it's in broad (albeit snowy) daylight.

And I'm nit picking here, but having Ghost attack the wight here in this throw away scene, and NOT having ghost involved in Jon vs Halfhand, feels like a slap =(

[The Dragon has three heads]

Lets all agree that for whatever reason, the battle wasn't in...it could have been done better, some of the suggestions to me seem at better and could have been shot in a soundstage or in northern island then mixed with some Iceland stuff in post,

Either way, it wasn't.

I'm a bit peeved but, life goes on.

[Runaway Penguin]

As already noted, I am not that much peeved about lack of battle, but about the character assassination of Sam. I guess it is part of trope for TV - same way Jaime was done even bigger douchebag in show by murdering his nephew just so that he can murder the guard...

[Constantinος]

People can deny the lack of battle, but they can not deny the lack of good writing.

[protar]

People can deny the lack of battle, but they can not deny the lack of good writing.

Sure we can. The scene was very poorly written imo. :P

[Nuttz]

I've been thinking today and last night that really people are overestimating the cost of this scene. Certainly it would have been an expenditure, a lot more of one than what we got, but not the unattainably huge CGI fest people are making it out to be.

If they had kept Sam back at the Fist for S2 E10, they could have easily framed it around the miniplot of him getting the ravens off. This, combined with the blizzard would have meant most of it could go on in the background, and I think that the mere impression of a battle going on whilst Sam was terrifyingly running about would be very impactful. They could easily just have had one or two dozen extras made to look like a large army in all that snow. CGI would only be needed for a couple of close ups of the wights. Tricks like men getting ripped apart by zombies are surprisingly easy to do and a quick search on youtube will demonstrate that such rigs can be pulled off well for under 50 pounds. Which is peanuts compared to the millions that they spend on each episode. If they really wanted to splash out they could have had the zombear attack Sam before being driven off by the NW. Presumably they would simply have had to hire out Bart the Bear (who'll be appearing in E8.) for a couple more days and use the same CGI enhancement they use on the Direwolves. If that's too much then a simple wight would be fine. Zombear would be a luxury item.

So in conclusion, it would be expensive, but hardly unfeasible and probably not that much more costly than stuff we've already had in previous episodes. We've had CGI heavy scenes and we've had fights with a couple dozen extras. I think what probably happened here is that rather than exercising a little creativity, D+D simply panicked and immediately assumed there was no way they could afford it and so we just got the current deal.

Refer to my previous post (page 3). You don't really have a grasp on how expensive it is to shoot any kind of scene for this show in particular. Even if all they showed was Sam returning the camp and sending the ravens (no fighting, just the sounds of it as Sam finds the raven cage), then that involves, like you said, one to two dozen extras which is very costly, even more so if you add in named characters such as Mormont, Grenn, Ed and Rast. Then they would need to pay for animal handlers for all of the ravens, which would be a considerable amount or risk it looking underwhelming. Even then, I'm not entirely sure what the laws are with having animals on film sets in such extreme conditions. It might not even be possible for them to shoot ravens (or crows) legally in Iceland, so in that case they would need to do it as CGI, which is of course even more expensive. Then of course that scene I just described is much more shot/blocking intensive than we got, so that would extend the shooting hours/days.

Sure we can. The scene was very poorly written imo. :P

I think it was pretty well written. The dialogue was pretty great and everything was in line with the characters from the show (and for the most part the book too). I also thought many of the decisions made to keep the costs down were pretty ingenius and worked on multiple levels. Like someone already said, Sam not sending the ravens gives him a more established arc for this season as well as keeping the costs down as we don't have to see him do it. The blizzard added some intensity to the scene and likely made it much easier to shoot once the steup was actually done. My only real complaint was that we didn't see how the hell Sam got away from that massive army of wights/white walkers, but the writers had the impossibly task of showing that without a massive army and at as low a cost as possible. Hopefully we'll get an explanation later on.

As for Mormont being unfair in his chiding of Sam for not sending the ravens, am I mistaken or did Grenn and Ed make it back to the fist in time for the battle? In that case, Sam could have too. It's only his fault that he fucked up and tripped, then decided to hide behind a rock. If he kept up with the other two then he could have made it to the Fist and sent the ravens.