What Happened At Harrennhal?

[Liathano]

I can't remember what actually happened in the books :( Someone boost my memory?

I know that the Brave Companions turn up at some point, then Jamie is brought with his chopped off hand, and Qyburn heals it… but timelines and things are out of whack in my memory.

- never mind, found the wiki -

[King Tommen]

In the books, Harenhal is held in ACoK by Tywin who lets the Mountain and Amory Lorch run the show when he is in battle. They also employ the Bloody Mummers (led by Vargo Hoat) to go out and do their dirty work. (BTW, Qyburn is a non-descript member of the Bloody Mummers at this point). When Arya is captured by the Mountain, she is brought to Harenhal and Tywin returns for a little bit (but Arya does not become his cupbearer like on the show). Tywin and the Mountain leave and Amory Lorch is left in charge and it's established that he doesn't really get along with the Bloody Mummers very well. A bunch of Northmen are captured and put in the dungeons and as part of her 3 favours from Jaqen, Arya executes the "Weasel Soup" to free the Northmen where it's revealed that they already kind of had a plan to escape because the Bloody Mummers had changed sides and were going to help them. They took the castle, fed Lorch to the bear in the bear pit and then Roose showed up as planned and he held the castle. Arya became his cup bearer for a while but doesn't reveal herself to him because she doesn't trust him. Arya ends up escaping when Roose is away from the castle and Vargo is in charge by killing one of the guards.

In ASoS, Roose is back at Harrenhal and the Bloody Mummers bring a captured (one handed) Jaime and Brienne to him. Vargo is wary of Roose because he suspects (rightfully) that Roose is going to align himself with the Lannisters. Apparently, he decided that having Jaime's hand cut off might piss off the Lannisters and stop the Roose alliance from happening. Qyburn heals Jaime's stump and Roose and Jaime chat for a bit where Jaime notices that Roose is looking for him to put in the good word with Tywin and then Roose allows Jaime to leave with the ("give my regards to Tywin/ give my regards to Robb Stark") lines. Then Roose leaves Harenhal for good to meet up with Robb again before they all go to the Twins. Jaime is released to go back to King's Landing but ends up returning to save Brienne from the Bear Pit. Later, it's revealed that the Mountain eventually comes back and kills Vargo and then gets called to King's Landing for the Oberyn duel. Polliver I believe is left in charge at that point but he ends up getting killed in the fight with Arya and the Hound at the Inn later. I think Jaime is actually the one who is sent from King's Landing to relieve the Mountain for a little while and he sets up some guys to hold it for Littlefinger in his absence since it's technically his castle that was awarded to him after Blackwater. I think those guys are still there holding Harenhal still.

Confusing enough for you? You can see why they decided to consolidate and simplify a lot of the stuff, especially with the Bloody Mummers switching sides. On the show, Locke will replace Vargo and he will be immediately established as one of Roose's men. The story will probably remain fairly faithful now that Roose is going to be handed the castle by Robb and Jaime and Brienne will be captured by Locke and his men to have their interactions later on.

[Words of Winter]

I have to say that the only people that are confused are book readers since they don't get that the Harenhal stuff has been altered and this is making them overthink the scene.

In S2, the Lannisters held Harenhal with the Mountain running the show before and after Tywin blew in and out. When Arya arrived (as a prisoner of Amory Lorch), there were clearly tons of prisoners all over the place which we would assume would have been taken by the Lannister armies in their battles against Robb's armies in the Riverlands. Now were they "Northmen" technically? Probably more likely people from the Riverlands but certainly men who had joined up in the battle with the Tully's and Starks. "Northmen" appears to just be the show's shorthand for "people loyal to Robb".

So Arya leaves at the end of S2, all the other prisoners are still there. Then, at the start of S3, Robb rides up with his army to take Harenhal from the Mountain, while telling Roose that all of the Lannister armies lately have been ducking him and that he and his men would rather have a real fight soon. He notices the dead bodies swaying in the galley's on top of the walls of Harrenhal and tells Roose that he doesn't think there's going to be a battle here either.

They then enter Harenhal, seeing that it's deserted by the Mountain and all his men. They've killed and strung up all the prisoners throughout the courtyard before they left as a present for Robb. There's old men and women so it's not really soldiers we're talking about, more likely just innocent villagers loyal to the Stark cause who were taken in for information the way Arya and crew were. To add to the theory that it's probably more Riverlands folk than anyone else, the only dead person identified is a Mallister who Cat says is a bannerman to her father.

I am having a hard time coming up any other way to read the scene and am surprised there are a few here who didn't get this.

:agree:

It only gets confusing if you try to meld it to the books or if you missed the dialogue when they are on horses looking at Harrenhal, IMHO.

[DaveSumm]

I agree it's easy to over think this if you've got the books in mind, but at the same time I don't think it was a well explained sequence. My non-book friends thought it was Winterfell, which to be fair made a lot of sense considering the lack of Riverrun last season meant Robb could really be battling anywhere. I don't blame them for thinking Robb was probably nearer Winterfell than Arya's last known location. We were essentially left to assume that the Mountain (not memorable in the show) heard Robb was on his way, slaughtered a load of prisoners (OK, there were some there last season but I'd be damned if any non-book readers could have pointed them out as Northeners) and scarpered.

But as has been said, this is all just to get Bolton and Qyburn in position so I guess it doesn't matter. It's a prime example of why the show can never be as enjoyable for book readers, you see everything as functional instead of enjoying a scene for what it is.

[Tori Targaryen]

There's a war going on. People get taken as prisoners in war. Harrenhal was the center base of operation for the Lannisters for a while but they have since then left.

I think the conclusions pretty much draw themselves from that.

Yeah I agree. I didn't feel the scene needed explaining either.

[cbhamlyn]

I don't have an issue with the scene itself, I get the need to showcase Bolton at Harrenhall. My issue is with logistics.

Maybe simply because we don't have a very good idea of where Rob was (somewhere in the West) at the end of S2, and then suddenly he's at Harrenhall with his entire army. We know you can't simply get to Harrenhall from the West, you either have to go by way of Riverrun or go via the Gold Road. I'm not talking about the books here, I'm talking about the map of Westeros I have on my wall with the HBO logo stamped on the bottom corner ;) You can dispute me, but several of the battle plans from S1 and S2 DEPEND on the very fact that Tywin can't get back to the West because Riverrun and the Twins are both closed to him. I mean, that's the whole reason Rob split his army AT THE TWINS!

Anyway, assuming he goes by way of Riverrun, why wouldn't he have left Cat there on his way through?

Also, taking into account Jamie and Brienne, is Rob further East than they are? Or have they (J&B) already gone past Harrenhall and will be brought back? Because if they show J&B further West than Harrenhall and expect me to believe that Rob and his army (and all his out-riders and scouts) marched right passed J&B, well I'll have to scoff at them.

Also taking into account Arya and company, if Rob can get an entire army to Harrenhall (from the West, by way of Riverrun), surely she would've gotten to Riverrun by now (considering even unskilled children can move faster than an entire army of troops and wagons and everything).

And finally, why the hell would the Lannisters abandon Harrenhall? I mean, it's not like it's a ruin. It was stout enough that Tywin himself used it as head quarters. The Mountain (or whoever) could've held that castle for a good while with just a few hundred troops. As far as the prisoners (and I agree with other people here that these were most likely not high-born captives, who all agree would make better hostages than corpses), they could've held Harrenhall and just hung the prisoners from the walls or whatever.

Yes, I see they need a fast way to allow Bolton to get Harrenhall (which could've just as easily been a scouting mission lead by Bolton by the way), but doing so in such a Dues Ex Machina way is lame. I mean, Ned could've cut his own head-off part way through Season 1 but then you lose the whole point of the story. Am I right?

[darrylzero]

This thread should probably be labeled "book spoilers" now. Or are there spoiler tags that could let us hide some future actions of Vargo/Locke, Qyburn, Roose, etc.? I'm not seeing them in the text editor, but I could have sworn they existed.

Confusing enough for you? You can see why they decided to consolidate and simplify a lot of the stuff, especially with the Bloody Mummers switching sides. On the show, Locke will replace Vargo and he will be immediately established as one of Roose's men. The story will probably remain fairly faithful now that Roose is going to be handed the castle by Robb and Jaime and Brienne will be captured by Locke and his men to have their interactions later on.

Excellent summary, thanks. I mostly remembered all that but it was nice to see it all laid out neatly.

This raises the obvious question, why is Locke is going to do that really big thing that Vargo does? He's Bolton's "best hunter," right? I thought Vargo's reasons for doing so related to his uneasy situation were really well-played and interesting to think through afterward. Will all of that be basically ignored? Locke will just be overzealous and cruel?

Yes, I see they need a fast way to allow Bolton to get Harrenhall (which could've just as easily been a scouting mission lead by Bolton by the way), but doing so in such a Dues Ex Machina way is lame. I mean, Ned could've cut his own head-off part way through Season 1 but then you lose the whole point of the story. Am I right?

Eh, I see where you're coming from, but I'm happy not to worry about how or why people travel the way they do in the show. I think it would be too much effort to get it right for very little gain. I know how you feel, though, once something starts nagging at you like that, it can really affect your appreciation. For me, though, it's an easy thing to let go. Distance, logistics, that kind of thing... as long as it doesn't confuse character motivations/priorities/personalities/capacities, I'm pretty much fine with it.

Although I definitely have a massive pet peeve in terms of the amount of magic that would be necessary for Pyat Pree to pull off his crazy multiplication-and-assassination act in S2. I feel compelled to tell every non-book-reader I know that there's just no way that would have been possible in the books. I think they meant it as an illusion -- maybe he had 10 henchmen who were there and actually killed the 10 other members of the 13 -- but I'm really hoping there's some throwaway line about it at some point. So, maybe that's my version of the logistics frustration.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't have an issue with the scene itself, I get the need to showcase Bolton at Harrenhall. My issue is with logistics.

Maybe simply because we don't have a very good idea of where Rob was (somewhere in the West) at the end of S2, and then suddenly he's at Harrenhall with his entire army. We know you can't simply get to Harrenhall from the West, you either have to go by way of Riverrun or go via the Gold Road. I'm not talking about the books here, I'm talking about the map of Westeros I have on my wall with the HBO logo stamped on the bottom corner ;) You can dispute me, but several of the battle plans from S1 and S2 DEPEND on the very fact that Tywin can't get back to the West because Riverrun and the Twins are both closed to him. I mean, that's the whole reason Rob split his army AT THE TWINS!

Anyway, assuming he goes by way of Riverrun, why wouldn't he have left Cat there on his way through?

Also, taking into account Jamie and Brienne, is Rob further East than they are? Or have they (J& B) already gone past Harrenhall and will be brought back? Because if they show J&B further West than Harrenhall and expect me to believe that Rob and his army (and all his out-riders and scouts) marched right passed J&B, well I'll have to scoff at them.

Also taking into account Arya and company, if Rob can get an entire army to Harrenhall (from the West, by way of Riverrun), surely she would've gotten to Riverrun by now (considering even unskilled children can move faster than an entire army of troops and wagons and everything).

And finally, why the hell would the Lannisters abandon Harrenhall? I mean, it's not like it's a ruin. It was stout enough that Tywin himself used it as head quarters. The Mountain (or whoever) could've held that castle for a good while with just a few hundred troops. As far as the prisoners (and I agree with other people here that these were most likely not high-born captives, who all agree would make better hostages than corpses), they could've held Harrenhall and just hung the prisoners from the walls or whatever.

Yes, I see they need a fast way to allow Bolton to get Harrenhall (which could've just as easily been a scouting mission lead by Bolton by the way), but doing so in such a Dues Ex Machina way is lame. I mean, Ned could've cut his own head-off part way through Season 1 but then you lose the whole point of the story. Am I right?

Im with you 100%. I mean, did Arya miss Rob's army on the way?

Why would Robb have his entire army within 1000 yards of HH before he even knows that there's no one there? No outriders? Scouts? Surveillance?

Nothing makes sense about the scene except that its a way to get Roose there, well, there's plenty better ways to get Roose there other than making the Young Wolf and company look like boobs and completely ignore any tactical skill by the Lannisters or Rob. A lightly held Harranhel could have been taken via cunning or overwhelming pretty easily in the same type of scene and then Roose could have found Qyburn.

Robb has no Maester, why would he leave this Maester with Roose and not take him for himself?

[Cas Stark]

I agree. Or, they could have just had a scene with Roose already in possession of Harrenhall and explained how he got there, rather than a confusing mash up that isn't consistent with either the books or with last season.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Nothing makes sense about the scene except that its a way to get Roose there, well, there's plenty better ways to get Roose there other than making the Young Wolf and company look like boobs and completely ignore any tactical skill by the Lannisters or Rob. A lightly held Harranhel could have been taken via cunning or overwhelming pretty easily in the same type of scene and then Roose could have found Qyburn.

Lol, a scene showing Northmen tactfully taking HH would be hundreds of times harder to film than hey look a pile of corpses. It would also be more confusing. They just couldn't spend much time on it, and it's not even confusing at all as many people have pointed out. There are practical oddities that you mentioned but those don't make it confusing, they make it rushed and convenient.

My first read through aCoK I was honestly baffled about WTF was going on at HH. It was super confusing to read initially as well, so I think they tried to skip much of it to simplify things at the cost of some things being practically too convenient or uncharacteristic of a disciplined army.

[Winterz]

I'm sure there's more to that slaughter than we know. Also, they were 200 men and though some were wearing Northern armor, their leader, as Cat points out, was Jason Mallister, a Tully bannerman.

About Qy, I'm pretty sure he took part in their slaughter and Jason Mallister was still alive in the books though he never played a significant part.

[Mulled Wino]

well in the book....Roose was taken prisoner there from the battle of the gold fork.....being that there was no "weasel soup" to spring the prisoners they had to have a way for Bolton to get there....I think all the dead were to show the devistation the Lannisters are creating in the riverlands and to plant dissent abmong the northern lords.....to show how Robb loses his grip on his coalition even though he's won every battle.....

Roose was not taken prisoner there

[Mulled Wino]

Lol, a scene showing Northmen tactfully taking HH would be hundreds of times harder to film than hey look a pile of corpses. It would also be more confusing. They just couldn't spend much time on it, and it's not even confusing at all as many people have pointed out. There are practical oddities that you mentioned but those don't make it confusing, they make it rushed and convenient.

My first read through aCoK I was honestly baffled about WTF was going on at HH. It was super confusing to read initially as well, so I think they tried to skip much of it to simplify things at the cost of some things being practically too convenient or uncharacteristic of a disciplined army.

You mean as expensive as the scene where theon took winterfell? Dis you happen to read where I said "lightly held"?

It was confusing to me and my wife.

Those practical oddities make it inconsistent within the confines of the show. Season 2 ends with The Mountain being told to hold a very strategic castle. Now he isnt there...confusing no? Just some dialogue or the scene being a scouting mission would clear things up.

[BrojenReed]

I was super confused and a little annoyed at the HH scene after I first watched the premiere, but after a couple more viewings I agree with what many of you are saying-- the scene was done this way to simplify the HH storyline and to conveniently place Roose and Qyburn in the same place.

I think the main reason that Robb had to be in the scene is that many viewers (who haven't read the books) often confuse characters.

I have many friends who are big fans of the series but haven't read the books, so they don't yet understand just how critical a character Roose Bolton is. The writers haven't even had his name spoken enough times to make it memorable. So I think having Robb and Catelyn present was one last reminder of who Roose is, his current allegiance, and his importance as one of Robb's main generals. This will add to the impact of the RW for those who have not read the books

[Tadco26]

When I watched it initially I thought I missed another battle "fast forward" like the fist of first men to explain what happened there. I would have expected the dead men to be restrained if they were just slaughtered prisoners, and you wouldn't expect Qyburn to have any chance of living if he was excecuted as a prisoner, vs just being a survivor in a battle where the enemy might not check every body that was down. At the very least it was poorly explained. Perhaps Qyburn will explain more in the future.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

You mean as expensive as the scene where theon took winterfell? Dis you happen to read where I said "lightly held"?

It was confusing to me and my wife.

Those practical oddities make it inconsistent within the confines of the show. Season 2 ends with The Mountain being told to hold a very strategic castle. Now he isnt there...confusing no? Just some dialogue or the scene being a scouting mission would clear things up.

Theon took Winterfell after we see him plot to feign an attack on Torrhen's (One scene), then Ser Rodrik take most of the remaining fighting men to Torrhen's square (Another scene), and we know Theon knows Winterfell inside out. A similar plot would be much more confusing and require much more build up to avoid confusion.

It's confusing if you don't listen to what Robb and Roose are talking about. Tywin is avoiding unnecessary confrontation and appears to be goading Robb and creating dissenssion within his ranks. No need to even attempt to hold Harrenhall because Tywin knows you win some wars with words and why chance losing men when you can have them placed more strategically for your ultimate plans.

[Conchobar]

I understood what had happened, but it could have been made more clear through commentary. I don't think Talisa should have been in the scene. Overall though I thought it was quite a captivating scene.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I understood what had happened, but it could have been made more clear through commentary. I don't think Talisa should have been in the scene. Overall though I thought it was quite a captivating scene.

I will agree on Talisa being there. What is she like Robb's squire/maester now? Why is she riding alongside Robb as he's preparing for potential battle?

[stunningsteve]

I didn't like the arrival at Harrenhal. Last time we saw Robb somewhere in Westerlands, near the Crag. Maybe his camp still was at Oxcross. And suddenly he marched through most part of the Riverlands to Harrenhal and ignored Riverrun the second time (first time after Whispering Wood, which was even worse)!?

We do know that he will be at Riverrun rather soon for Hoster's funeral. It would have made more sense for him arriving at RR in this episode and sending Bolton with a part of his army to Harrenhal with them arriving in the beginning of E3.

Clegane leaving Harrenhal made more sense. His scouts or spies informed about Robb marching to Harrenhal. We don't know how many men Tywin left him, but Harrenhal is HUGE and more ruin than castle. It can't be defended against such a force like Robb's. He know he had to leave to survive and the prisoners (probably from the Green Fork and his raids in the Riverlands like the Mallister Knight) would have slowed him down. So he ordered to kill them and arranged them as "welcoming present" for Robb. If Qyburn was just lucky to survive or was left alive intentional as a spy or contact person between Roose and Tywin is hard to say right now. We don't know how long exactly Roose has been aligned with the Lannisters and what nackground story they will give Qyburn in the series.

[kevin1989]

I will agree on Talisa being there. What is she like Robb's squire/maester now? Why is she riding alongside Robb as he's preparing for potential battle?

That's what many wifes do, checking their man constantly ^^ Just kidding.

Only problem I got from this scene is that it didn't have a pay-off. The set-up was there but not the pay-off. They could have better put this scene in episode 2 (where we see Cat in her cell etc) and have another scene in this episode from episode 2. I mean they did great with Tyrion and Danny by doing more in one episode, but not for Jon and Sam. They could have better have a scene more with either of these two. But still they did a great job.