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What Happened At Harrennhal?


Ramsay Gimp

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I agree with Mulled Vino, you can see the logic for the scene and placing Roose at HH but its the whirlwind tour of the Wester/Riverlands by Robb with his entire host thats problematic here. Before Tywin decides to march to the aid of the capital, Ser Kevan points out that Robb's host remained north of Ashemark, which tally's with Robb and Talisa going to the Crag to accept their surrender.

Now if Robb and Roose know its the mountain and only a small garrsion that were left defending HH, then it stands to reason they know Tywin has left HH (whether they know about Stannis' defeat remains uncertain). Now if we specuate that Robb upon hearing of Hoster's death heads to Riverrun (much to Karstark's annoyance), from there (judging by the trailers "take his home, take his gold") plans an attack on Casterly Rock you have to wonder why he didn't pursue such an attack when he was near Ashemark initially.

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The show doesn't really care a whole lot about the logistics of the geography and the way the characters move around it the way the books do so I don't know why some here continue to harp on it. For the convenience of the plot, some characters will be able to move to different locations quicker than others and since you don't see their journey, you can either manufacture some reason as to how that happened (on horseback, travelled through the night, took a shortcut off the main road etc) or you can use your suspension of disbelief to just accept that this is the way it is.

It's really not something that should alter your enjoyment of the show to any real degree.

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I have to say that the only people that are confused are book readers since they don't get that the Harenhal stuff has been altered and this is making them overthink the scene.

In S2, the Lannisters held Harenhal with the Mountain running the show before and after Tywin blew in and out. When Arya arrived (as a prisoner of Amory Lorch), there were clearly tons of prisoners all over the place which we would assume would have been taken by the Lannister armies in their battles against Robb's armies in the Riverlands. Now were they "Northmen" technically? Probably more likely people from the Riverlands but certainly men who had joined up in the battle with the Tully's and Starks. "Northmen" appears to just be the show's shorthand for "people loyal to Robb".

So Arya leaves at the end of S2, all the other prisoners are still there. Then, at the start of S3, Robb rides up with his army to take Harenhal from the Mountain, while telling Roose that all of the Lannister armies lately have been ducking him and that he and his men would rather have a real fight soon. He notices the dead bodies swaying in the galley's on top of the walls of Harrenhal and tells Roose that he doesn't think there's going to be a battle here either.

They then enter Harenhal, seeing that it's deserted by the Mountain and all his men. They've killed and strung up all the prisoners throughout the courtyard before they left as a present for Robb. There's old men and women so it's not really soldiers we're talking about, more likely just innocent villagers loyal to the Stark cause who were taken in for information the way Arya and crew were. To add to the theory that it's probably more Riverlands folk than anyone else, the only dead person identified is a Mallister who Cat says is a bannerman to her father.

I am having a hard time coming up any other way to read the scene and am surprised there are a few here who didn't get this.

:agree:

I need a LIKE button.

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I will agree on Talisa being there. What is she like Robb's squire/maester now? Why is she riding alongside Robb as he's preparing for potential battle?

Where is she supposed to go?

  • Winterfell is no longer held by the Starks (they don't know it's an abandoned ruin yet.)
  • Should he send her alone ahead to Riverrun? There's a war going on still.
  • Perhaps back home to Volantis?

More importantly, do you think she'd suddenly become the little obedient wife and agree? She was a field nurse when they met. I don't see Robb doing that to her.

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Theon took Winterfell after we see him plot to feign an attack on Torrhen's (One scene), then Ser Rodrik take most of the remaining fighting men to Torrhen's square (Another scene), and we know Theon knows Winterfell inside out. A similar plot would be much more confusing and require much more build up to avoid confusion.

It's confusing if you don't listen to what Robb and Roose are talking about. Tywin is avoiding unnecessary confrontation and appears to be goading Robb and creating dissenssion within his ranks. No need to even attempt to hold Harrenhall because Tywin knows you win some wars with words and why chance losing men when you can have them placed more strategically for your ultimate plans.

So? What does that mean? All we need is the scene where Roose takes HH because The Mountain left. Thats it.

You are the hindsight king. So you are suggesting that giving up a very strategic location like HH was part of tywin's plan because what? He knew Roose would be given control of HH?

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What I am not understanding is.... regarding Robb raiding the Westerlands and the Edmure Fords thing. Is that still going to happen? Is a Lannister army going to come back? If not, there isn't much for Robb to do before his wedding

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So? What does that mean? All we need is the scene where Roose takes HH because The Mountain left. Thats it.

You are the hindsight king. So you are suggesting that giving up a very strategic location like HH was part of tywin's plan because what? He knew Roose would be given control of HH?

Tywin doesn't give a shit about Harenhal at this point because he's plotting to take down Robb's army be nefarious means, not on the field of battle because to this point, that has only led to defeat and loss of men. He's pulling his armies away from Robb so that he can engineer his demise through treachery. I'm sure he doesn't care about what Robb does with Harenhal and whether it's given to Roose or not because that doesn't impact his plan.

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What I am not understanding is.... regarding Robb raiding the Westerlands and the Edmure Fords thing. Is that still going to happen? Is a Lannister army going to come back? If not, there isn't much for Robb to do before his wedding

There was talk of a scene where Edmure does or says something stupid later this season that hurts Robb's tactical position but what it is exactly is unknown at this point.

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So? What does that mean? All we need is the scene where Roose takes HH because The Mountain left. Thats it.

You are the hindsight king. So you are suggesting that giving up a very strategic location like HH was part of tywin's plan because what? He knew Roose would be given control of HH?

You can call me hindsight king, but when you know what's going to happen this move makes sense given knowledge available and motivation for the characters in question at this current juncture. it might not make sense to TV viewers yet, which is fine not to know something and then later realize the point.

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Roose was not taken prisoner there

could have sworn he was a prisoner....how the hell did he get to Harrenhall then??.....I know he lost battles in the riverlands.....figured he was taken after he lost them .....been a while since I read book 3.....I remember Wesel soup and the scenes with Twin and Arya never happend...

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I think the main purpose of that scene though is to show how Bolton and Karstark begin to doubt Robb"s leadership and cause. I think they are starting to feel he's made some very poor political mistakes and Jamies release was the topper.....all the dead northmen was the catalyst for dissent among the northern lords

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You can call me hindsight king, but when you know what's going to happen this move makes sense given knowledge available and motivation for the characters in question at this current juncture. it might not make sense to TV viewers yet, which is fine not to know something and then later realize the point.

In the book ...Robb and Blackfish devise a strategy to draw the Lannisters out and slowly bleed them.....when Edmure joins the battles and has a victory over the lannisters at Rivverun Tywin thinks better of it and heads for kings landing instead of engaging robbs army....hence the frustration over not being able to fight the Lannisters....they didn't anticipate them heading for kings landing and smashing Stannis and having Highgarden with them ......hence Edmure has to marry one of the frey girls as punishment for his folly

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My friends who hadn't read the book, thought Robb and party where in Winterfell...

Based on threads I have read from non-book readers, this is the single biggest misconception from episode 1.

They also think "lord Dreadfort" is "smoking hot sexy" :ack:

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In the book ...Robb and Blackfish devise a strategy to draw the Lannisters out and slowly bleed them.....when Edmure joins the battles and has a victory over the lannisters at Rivverun Tywin thinks better of it and heads for kings landing instead of engaging robbs army....hence the frustration over not being able to fight the Lannisters....they didn't anticipate them heading for kings landing and smashing Stannis and having Highgarden with them ......hence Edmure has to marry one of the frey girls as punishment for his folly

I know. I've read the books many times. That's just not how it works in the TV Show as it's timed differently for whatever reason.

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There was talk of a scene where Edmure does or says something stupid later this season that hurts Robb's tactical position but what it is exactly is unknown at this point.

interesting. I find this whole Harrenhal thing to be the most jarring change so far in the series
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interesting. I find this whole Harrenhal thing to be the most jarring change so far in the series

Yeah, I don't get this at all. As long as you can recognize that it's Harenhal (which is unfortunate that some non-readers are confusing it for Winterfell), then the sequence seems pretty clear. Robb arrives to take the castle from the Mountain, complains that Tywin's now ducking all battles with him and sees that the Mountain (presumably under orders from Tywin) has abandoned Harenhal as well, thus denying Robb another chance to win a skirmish. Once they go into Harenhal, they can see that before he left, the Mountain has killed all the Northern and Riverlands prisoners that the Lannister armies had collected over the past season and butchered them. Cat sees a Mallister amongst the dead who she identifies as her father's bannerman. Scene done.

All of this information is reinforced in the dialogue of the scene between Robb, Cat, Roose and Karstark. Robb's itching for a fight, they're all devastated by all the carnage the Mountain left behind and Roose tells Karstark that he'll get his revenge on Jaime for his son's death soon.

And if you're a book reader, you should see the foreshadowing all over the place in this sequence. Clearly, Tywin having his armies not engage with Robb is a tactic he's using because he has decided to bring Robb down another way. You can see both Karstark and Roose cast some doubt on Robb's ability to win this war. Also, we know that to align certain events prior to the RW, Robb is going to leave Roose to garrison Harenhal so that he can have his man Locke bring a captured Jaime and Brienne to him and they can have their little chat prior to Roose leaving for the Twins.

They've also decided to have Qyburn be discovered at this point so that he can be the one to heal Jaime and eventually head to King's Landing to continue his shenanigans there in future seasons.

I figured this out the first time they showed the shot of Robb and Cat looking at the dead bodies at Harenhal in one of the early trailers. Why are so many people having issues with this?

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I guess it's confusing because I never heard them say anything about how the people died. Maybe I missed it, but it seems like they are just dead, and I didn't notice them being restrained or anything to suggest they were prisoners, which made it seem like there was a battle. That was reinforced by Qyburn being alive. If all the northerners were executed as prisoners, then the chance of someone surviving their execution is virtually zero. So that made me think that perhaps it was supposed to be the aftermath of a battle I some how missed, just like some non-readers missed that there was even supposed to be a battle in the intro between the white walkers and night's watch when the screen went black.

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As they approached Harrenhal and Robb complained about Tywin's armies ducking him, he looks up at Harrenhal and sees dead bodies hung from galleys on top of the walls. He then says something about how it doesn't look like there will be a battle here either.

The info is all there in the sequence, I guess if you aren't paying attention, you could get confused because it's not in the books.

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