What Happened At Harrennhal?

[King of the Road]

And give up your strongholds that threaten Casterly Rock? Those strongholds in lannister lands? Which your army was living off of.. Now the entire army is in HH in burned out and depleted lands that the lannisters have stripped bare. Great strategy...

Now he has to bakttack or attack KL. Attacking KL is what tywin (and the tyrells) wants if he's retreating, so that's the last thing he should do, and backtracking is for rookies. Should they re-march to oxcross and the west?

Any time you transport an entire arny to do the work 200 men could do, you look dumb. How about some scouting?

I'd leave a garrison in Harrenhal which any army marching from KL would have to bypass in order to take the direct road north and no one leaves an unclaimed fortress at their rear. The British army attempted that in the Peninsular War and suffered for it.

The rest of my men I'd take to Riverrun from where we can regroup, reform and then have the possibilities of moving west and into the Lannister heartland or alternatively march with all strength back to Harrenhal and attack the food supplies at Rosby.

The army in Harrenhal would not need to be living off the land which the Lannisters have burned out because of baggage supplies. These provide food and other necessary supplies for an army on campaign. At Harrenhal an army can have shelter and rest, and lets face it all 20,000 men won't be staying there more than a few weeks. A small garrison can feed themselves easier than a large, tired army.

Scouting can be unreliable as I don't believe Robb Stark was in possession of radios. The delay between outriders reaching the army from lets say 30 miles ahead doesn't account for variables such as further movement (such as a retreat) or even outriders being intercepted. Moreover, once an army is committed to a movement, they usually have to stick with it due to effects on time (valuable when the campaign season is drawing to a close), effects which are doubled when one is dealing with an army of the size of Robb Stark's.

Now as for backtracking, I don't know if you can qualify this as a move for 'rookies'. Armies often make a tactical retreat in order to either live to fight another day or even to draw an enemy into a battle on ground of their own choosing. Examples of this include Wellington and Blucher following the respective battles of Quatre Bras and Ligny and the tactics of the Vietcong/NVA. Now granted, this can on occasion have adverse effects on morale and supply but when the enemy outnumbers your forces this becomes a necessary scenario.

[Igziabeher]

If you ignore the books for a moment, and realize that when Arya got to Harrenhall, the dungeons were already full. The mountain and Co. were torturing the villagers and looking for the brotherhood without banners, not any Starkmen. So its not a stretch to assume that once Tywin and his bannermen left. The mountain continued killing off his prisoners, this time in mass and went out to find/fight the Brotherhood.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

If you ignore the books for a moment, and realize that when Arya got to Harrenhall, the dungeons were already full. The mountain and Co. were torturing the villagers and looking for the brotherhood without banners, not any Starkmen. So its not a stretch to assume that once Tywin and his bannermen left. The mountain continued killing off his prisoners, this time in mass and went out to find/fight the Brotherhood.

This requires viewers to think and reference older episodes which apparently is a huge no-no.

[Igziabeher]

Well all it would require is an introduction of Thoros and Co. next week and a brief explanation that they were fighting the mountain on Ned Stark's request and that would be your closure.

[Tadco26]

They were rather lucky that there wasn't an army at Harrenhal, recall in Clash of Kings:

Ser Brynden said: "...Tywin Lannister is no man's fool. He sits safe behind the walls of Harrenhal, feeding his host on our harvest and burning what he does not take. Gregor is not the only dog he he's loosed. Ser Amory Lorch in in the field as well, and some sellsword out of Qohor who'd sooner maim a man than kill him. I've seen what they leave behind them. Whole villages put to the torch, women raped and mutilated, butchered children left unburied to draw wolves and wild dogs.. it would sicked even the dead."

"When Edmure hears this, he will rage" said Catelyn

"And that will be just as Lord Tywin desires. Even terror has it's purpose Cat. Lannister wants to provoke us to battle."

"Robb is like to give him his wish" Catelyn said, fretful...

"More fool they. My first rule of war Cat, -never give the enemy his wish. Lord Tywin would like to fight on a field of his own choosing. He wants us to march on Harrenhal."

Even a small army could likely hold the castle for enough time for Tywin and the Tyrells to come relieve the siege. The walls and towers were too high to scale, and attacking it would generally be considered suicidal. The only reason it fell so "easily" in the books is because the released prisoners were already inside and the Bloody Mummers switched sides.

Granted Robb implies that the TV version of Harrenhal is merely an undefendable ruin, but that doesn't make much sense either. Why would either one of them want to capture and hold an undefendable ruin? Why would Tywin use it as his base of power in the Riverlands if it was so vulnerable to attack?

[callmedodge]

Because it is an issue for non-readers as has been brought up multiple times in the thread.

Not to mention that Rob looks like a fool for bringing his entire army to lay siege to an empty castle.

Well the issue seems to link back to the fact that they either weren`t listening or needed to be spoonfed the info. I missed a point on my list there that I only caught on a rewatch of episode 1 last night:

When Arya shows up at Harrenhal in season 2 either Gendry or Hot Pie remarks "what could melt stone like this?" or something to that effect and Arya replies "Dragonfire." Later in the season, she again has a conversation with Tywin over how Harrenhal got destroyed.

That`s two instances of remarking how only dragonfire could destroy a castle to such a degree. Sure, Winterfell was set fire to but confusing it with Harrenhal in such a manner is just not adding up the numbers that the show has laid out for the viewer.

If the show had`ve explained things further it would`ve made Robb and co. look like exposition dumpers. None of my non-reader friends had trouble with this scene.

The Tarly scene, yes, but not Harrenhal.

[Black Wolf Smith]

For what its worth, I wasn't sure it was HH. The story is far from the books, and getting further away. Hell have we even meet the Tully's? ( I miss couple minutes)

[Hellfell]

We will meet the Tullys in episode 3 I suppose. They will play "loyal supporters" role since Karstark is angry and Roose is reserved in his feelings towards all this mess of a war.

[TheDarkOne]

I tend to wonder if they didn't use Harrennhal simply because they still had the set built?

[Tywin's bastard]

This requires viewers to think and reference older episodes which apparently is a huge no-no.

Yes, the show gets much criticism for dumbing things down but as soon as you need to think for yourself, and not just reference the book, some of those people start complaining about that as well.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I tend to wonder if they didn't use Harrennhal simply because they still had the set built?

This is obviously a big part. I can write a book and say they're absolutely anywhere as the story sees fit, but filming is an entirely different animal.

[SerMixalot]

I guess my confusion arose from Robb stating outside the castle that the Lannisters have been running from him and not fighting him and suddenly there was what I thought was a fight at HH or then prisoners killed by the Mt. Where did those prisoners come from if the Lannisters havent been fighting them as clearly there were soldiers there-Mallister.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I guess my confusion arose from Robb stating outside the castle that the Lannisters have been running from him and not fighting him and suddenly there was what I thought was a fight at HH or then prisoners killed by the Mt. Where did those prisoners come from if the Lannisters havent been fighting them as clearly there were soldiers there-Mallister.

Therre were prisoners at Harrenhall while being held by the Mountain. In S2 they tell you that the dungeons are overflowing and thus they are holding Arya and co. outdoors during the tickling scenes. Those prisoners appear to have been carried out still shackled and then slaughtered prior to the Lannisters leaving.