What Happened At Harrennhal?

[oakenhelm]

Yeah, I don't get this at all. As long as you can recognize that it's Harenhal (which is unfortunate that some non-readers are confusing it for Winterfell), then the sequence seems pretty clear. Robb arrives to take the castle from the Mountain, complains that Tywin's now ducking all battles with him and sees that the Mountain (presumably under orders from Tywin) has abandoned Harenhal as well, thus denying Robb another chance to win a skirmish. Once they go into Harenhal, they can see that before he left, the Mountain has killed all the Northern and Riverlands prisoners that the Lannister armies had collected over the past season and butchered them. Cat sees a Mallister amongst the dead who she identifies as her father's bannerman. Scene done.

All of this information is reinforced in the dialogue of the scene between Robb, Cat, Roose and Karstark. Robb's itching for a fight, they're all devastated by all the carnage the Mountain left behind and Roose tells Karstark that he'll get his revenge on Jaime for his son's death soon.

And if you're a book reader, you should see the foreshadowing all over the place in this sequence. Clearly, Tywin having his armies not engage with Robb is a tactic he's using because he has decided to bring Robb down another way. You can see both Karstark and Roose cast some doubt on Robb's ability to win this war. Also, we know that to align certain events prior to the RW, Robb is going to leave Roose to garrison Harenhal so that he can have his man Locke bring a captured Jaime and Brienne to him and they can have their little chat prior to Roose leaving for the Twins.

They've also decided to have Qyburn be discovered at this point so that he can be the one to heal Jaime and eventually head to King's Landing to continue his shenanigans there in future seasons.

I figured this out the first time they showed the shot of Robb and Cat looking at the dead bodies at Harenhal in one of the early trailers. Why are so many people having issues with this?

OK. I think everything in your post is well-reasoned. I did get all that. And yes, I read the books, lol.

I really didn't give a great explanation for what I meant. It's my own negligence, but I didn't fully grasp the consequences last season of having Arya in HH and what that would probably mean in the future. When Tywin is sitting in King Landing writing a letter, I wonder who it is that will be attempting to cross into the Riverlands for Edmure to repel. It didn't hit me until Sunday night that the sequence of events had been changed the way they had. So when I said "this whole Harrenhal thing" I'm referring to everything we have seen there so far.

I love the show and I'm not a purist. This is one of the few times where the action on screen seemed so out of place that I went back to the wiki to sort it out. ACoK and AsoS aren't fresh in my mind.

So it was really more of an 'Oh shit!' moment for me. I see why the show did it the way they did. Plus I really don't need to see the Goat on the show, lol.

[Tadco26]

As they approached Harrenhal and Robb complained about Tywin's armies ducking him, he looks up at Harrenhal and sees dead bodies hung from galleys on top of the walls. He then says something about how it doesn't look like there will be a battle here either.

The info is all there in the sequence, I guess if you aren't paying attention, you could get confused because it's not in the books.

I missed the bodies hanging from galleys when he said that though there were bodies hanging there last season when Arya left after they tried to find the assassin so it wouldn't have changed my perception much I don't think. The line about no battle for Robb I interpreted to mean that there had already been a battle before they got there, perhaps with Riverrun. So I must have missed whatever other clue there was that these were prisoners who had been executed rather than casualties from a battle. I didn't see any restraints on the dead, and they hadn't been hung, or beheaded on a chopping block or killed in cages. Plus it didn't make much sense that Qyburn would survive an execution.

[Sun]

Rob's arc is such a mess in the show.

[King Tommen]

If you watch the scene again, you can see that pretty much every dead person scattered in Harrenhal has their hands bound together and/or have been strung up and piled up on wooden restraints. It's pretty obvious.

As for Qyburn being alive, he's been bloodied and worked over and appears to be dead until he weakly awakens and coughs. Talisa goes to treat him and after looking at his wounds, says he's lucky to be alive which he can barely respond to. I don't see how that's too hard to believe that in their haste to slaughter everyone, they may not have went and checked everyone's pulse afterwards to make sure they were completely dead.

Here's the dialogue from when Robb approaches Harrenhal:

Roose: "We should set the siege lines a 1000 yards from Harrenhal" (They even say it's Harrenhal, not Winterfell for all the people who couldn't tell by just looking at it).

Robb: "There won't be a siege. The Mountain can't defend a ruin."

Roose: "I imagine the Mountain will defend whatever Tywin Lannister tells him to defend."

Robb: "The Lannister's have been running from us since Oxcross. The men would love a fight. (sees the hanging bodies above the walls) I don't think we're going to get one."

Robb walks into Harrnehal, immediately comes across a soldier hanging by a noose, bled out on the ground. He looks around the courtyard and sees bodies of dead men and women piled on top of carts and bound to wooden restraints. Some of them have spears stuck in their backs or through their bodies. Most of them have their hands bound together with rope.

Roose and Karstark walk in to survey the damage.

Karstark: "200 Northmen, slaughtered like sheep." (Pretty good indication of a slaughter, not a battle if it wasn't made distinctly clear enough by the visuals)

Roose: "The debt will be repaid my friend, for them and for your sons."

Karstark: "They rot in the ground while their killer runs free." (looks over at Catelyn as she enters the scene to look at the bodies)

Roose: "The Kingslayer won't remain free for long. My best hunter is after him." (obvious reference to Locke)

(Robb and Cat approach a dead man bound up with a knife through a sigil on his chest while Talisa checks on some of the other bodies.)

Robb: "A Mallister."

Cat: "Ser Jeremy, my father's bannerman"

(Karstark has had enough and storms out. Roose sticks around long enough to give the evil eye and then leaves too.)

(Robb looks up to see the faces of some of his soldiers who are staring intently at Cat. He gathers himself and puts on his "I'm in charge" voice)

Robb: "Find her a chamber that will serve as a cell." (Catelyn leaves with one of the men, Talisa approaches Robb)

Talisa: (quietly): "She's your mother..."

Robb: "She freed Jaime Lannister. The Lannisters robbed them of their sons, she robbed them of their justice."

(The man bound up beside Ser Jeremy suddenly coughs and Talisa and Robb rush over to check on him.Talisa looks at the huge gash on the man's neck)

Talisa: "This wound needs to be cleaned and closed." (Robb gives him some water to drink)

Robb: "What's your name friend?"

Man: "Qyburn"

Talisa: "You're lucky to be alive."

(Qyburn looks around at all the carnage, raises his eyebrow and grins weakly.) "Lucky?"

[Khal Pono]

Are the Brave Companions supposed to have done this? I don't get the point of this. They could have just easly just had Roose show up and take over Harrenhall without inexplicable dead Northern soldiers, and what is Quyborn doing with them? Weird.

There are no Brave Companions in the show and will be none. That part of the books has been eliminated.

[Khal Pono]

I wonder if they'll make Qyburn as horrible as he is in the books. I certainly hope so, 'cos he's the creepiest guy in the series imo...

Agreed. I *love* the way how GRRM goes out of his way to describe some of the most terrifyingly evil minor characters (The Tickler, Qyburn, Roose Bolton) as having an utterly unremarkable, "ordinary" appearance. Book Qyburn even looks kindly/fatherly and completely nonthreatening. Whenever I picutre him while reading the books, I picture my own dad, a pudgy, harmless teddy bear of a guy. Curious to see what this actor will do with this very chilling role..

[teemo]

I'm still so sad about the Brave Companions being cut...they really give me chills whenever I read about them. At least Qyburn is here though! I asked a few of my classmates today who watch the show where they thought Robb was and 3 didn't know, 2 said Winterfell. I recognized it as Harrenhal immediately and they even SAID it, but I guess it's still not obvious enough...

[Lion of Judah]

My guess is that they switched up the story a bit and the Northmen we saw dead at Harrenhal were actually the men that Arya had Jaqen free in the books.

[Khal Pono]

My guess is that they switched up the story a bit and the Northmen we saw dead at Harrenhal were actually the men that Arya had Jaqen free in the books.

Never mind that these prisoners never existed in the show until now. The only prisoners in Harenhal, as far as we show-watchers knew, were the poor villagers being tortured by Gregor and the Tickler & co.

Not that we couldn't *imagine* therer were also other prisoners, but I think it was poorly explained.

[Mulled Wino]

I just got back from a friend's house who swore up and down that this happened in Winterfell.

[callmedodge]

Never mind that these prisoners never existed in the show until now. The only prisoners in Harenhal, as far as we show-watchers knew, were the poor villagers being tortured by Gregor and the Tickler & co.

Not that we couldn't *imagine* therer were also other prisoners, but I think it was poorly explained.

Except when Tywin arrives at Harrenhal in season 2 the Mountain explicitly says that the prisoners are out in the yard in what looks to be a pigsty because the dungeons are all full.

The amount of "The show is not explaining stuff" coming from people who don`t even seem to be listening to the dialogue is extraordinary.

[kevin1989]

I just got back from a friend's house who swore up and down that this happened in Winterfell.

How can they think that when before entering Harrenhal, you see the ruin of Harrenhal?

[Khal Pono]

Except when Tywin arrives at Harrenhal in season 2 the Mountain explicitly says that the prisoners are out in the yard in what looks to be a pigsty because the dungeons are all full.

The amount of "The show is not explaining stuff" coming from people who don`t even seem to be listening to the dialogue is extraordinary.

I've watched the episodes about a dozen times each, but most people haven't. No one's going to remember that bit of dialogue from 8 episdoes ago; besides I just assumed he meant their prisons were overflowing with local peasants, not captured Northmen/Rivermen. The lack of explanation didn't ruin the whole show by any means, but there are definitely ways the writing/directing could have made what had happened at Harrenhal clearer in the same amount of time.

[callmedodge]

I've watched the episodes about a dozen times each, but most people haven't. No one's going to remember that bit of dialogue from 8 episdoes ago; besides I just assumed he meant their prisons were overflowing with local peasants, not captured Northmen/Rivermen. The lack of explanation didn't ruin the whole show by any means, but they're are definitely ways the writing/directing could have made what had happened at Harrenhal clearer in the same amount of time.

I honestly think it`s a bit of a non-issue. The only people who are going to be bothered are those who read too much into it. The show has already established Harrenhal as a place and it featured quite regularly in the last season. I don`t know what more people need beyond:

1. We`re at Harrenhal (explicity stated by Bolton)

2. Lannister forces have been evading Stark forces and the Stark`s are looking for a fight (Mentioned by Robb)

3. The Mountain was stationed at Harrenhal (well established last season and mentioned again by Robb or Bolton (can`t remember which))

4. Tywin battled with Stark forces at the end of season 1, won and presumably took captives. Next time we see him, it`s not a stretch to assume he brought those captives to Harrenhal. Especially since he was concerned with keeping civilians as prisoners instead of using their skills - space that could otherwise be used for actual prisoners.

5. The Mountain leaves Harrenhal because that`s what the Lannisters are currently doing: fleeing, and decides to kill all those captives instead of taking them along or leaving them alive. Qyburn has obviously been left there as a spy.

Granted, 4 is a bit of a stretch but I`m just surprised that so many people didn`t get this extremely simple scene. My non-book readers certainly had no trouble understanding what was happening.

Short of exposition, I don`t really see how it could be made clearer. If you`re not following the story (which others have no problem doing) then it`s certainly not the shows fault.

I`m not saying the show`s perfect either, I just don`t understand why people see this as an issue.

[Patchface123]

I was watching the episode with a friend who hasn't read the books, and this scene made him ask me "what happened here?". I didn't really have a good answer since the whole storyline differs so much from the books. In the show, you never get feeling that the northern army is split up, in S01E09 Robb sends a splinter force on a suicide mission but otherwise the whole army seems to stay with him. During Aryas stay at Harrenhal, there are prisoners, sure, but they seem to be local farmers rather than northern soldiers.

I think it was necessary to change this storyline from the books, but I feel it could've been done better. Anyways, things seems to be getting back on track with Roose in Harrenhal and Robb and Cat on their way to Riverrun (I guess).

[Tommen]

Yeah the show really needs to clarify its version of events regarding Harrenhal.

[Mulled Wino]

How can they think that when before entering Harrenhal, you see the ruin of Harrenhal?

Their explanation was this:

1) they thought Roose said winterfell.

2) the courtyard looked just like the one in Winterfell

3) they said northmen so they thought it was in the north. The prisoners that were with arya in HH weren't soldiers.

I explained how far WF was and thar theon was in wf and they understood.

These are non book readers. They were meh on the first episode and spent the whole day sunday watching every ep that was on. They are still pumped about the season though. Biggest complaint by far was the opening scene with tarly.

After that, they thought HH was confusing and Mance was a letdown.

No beef with any of the KL stuff or with Astapor. They loved the Unsullied scene and story about killing the babies. Had to tell them about the puppies too.

[Mulled Wino]

I honestly think it`s a bit of a non-issue. The only people who are going to be bothered are those who read too much into it. The show has already established Harrenhal as a place and it featured quite regularly in the last season. I don`t know what more people need beyond:

1. We`re at Harrenhal (explicity stated by Bolton)

2. Lannister forces have been evading Stark forces and the Stark`s are looking for a fight (Mentioned by Robb)

3. The Mountain was stationed at Harrenhal (well established last season and mentioned again by Robb or Bolton (can`t remember which))

4. Tywin battled with Stark forces at the end of season 1, won and presumably took captives. Next time we see him, it`s not a stretch to assume he brought those captives to Harrenhal. Especially since he was concerned with keeping civilians as prisoners instead of using their skills - space that could otherwise be used for actual prisoners.

5. The Mountain leaves Harrenhal because that`s what the Lannisters are currently doing: fleeing, and decides to kill all those captives instead of taking them along or leaving them alive. Qyburn has obviously been left there as a spy.

Granted, 4 is a bit of a stretch but I`m just surprised that so many people didn`t get this extremely simple scene. My non-book readers certainly had no trouble understanding what was happening.

Short of exposition, I don`t really see how it could be made clearer. If you`re not following the story (which others have no problem doing) then it`s certainly not the shows fault.

I`m not saying the show`s perfect either, I just don`t understand why people see this as an issue.

Because it is an issue for non-readers as has been brought up multiple times in the thread.

Not to mention that Rob looks like a fool for bringing his entire army to lay siege to an empty castle.

[King of the Road]

Because it is an issue for non-readers as has been brought up multiple times in the thread.

Not to mention that Rob looks like a fool for bringing his entire army to lay siege to an empty castle.

Does he look like a fool? His aim was to take control of Harrenhal, which he has accomplished without a fight. By bringing his entire army he encouraged Clegane to stage a retreat and can now move on in pursuit of the Lannister forces with his full strength, whilst also having enough men to garrison Harrenhal.

[Mulled Wino]

Does he look like a fool? His aim was to take control of Harrenhal, which he has accomplished without a fight. By bringing his entire army he encouraged Clegane to stage a retreat and can now move on in pursuit of the Lannister forces with his full strength, whilst also having enough men to garrison Harrenhal.

And give up your strongholds that threaten Casterly Rock? Those strongholds in lannister lands? Which your army was living off of.. Now the entire army is in HH in burned out and depleted lands that the lannisters have stripped bare. Great strategy...

Now he has to bakttack or attack KL. Attacking KL is what tywin (and the tyrells) wants if he's retreating, so that's the last thing he should do, and backtracking is for rookies. Should they re-march to oxcross and the west?

Any time you transport an entire arny to do the work 200 men could do, you look dumb. How about some scouting?