[Book Spoilers] Sigil of "House Talisa"

[Seed]

Someone from Volantis couldn't memorize a simple marriage vow?

She might be a plant, but I really hope not. I just makes it simple reductionism where every plan and scheme hatched by the bad guys works brilliantly and the heroes are hapless fools.

You think that doesn't happen in real life? See: 9/11

[Tadco26]

http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

My point wasn't that I expected them to show Talisa getting raped. My point was that they should have given her an armed escort or made her less confrontational to men in power or something to suggest why it would be safe for an attractive woman with no apparent martial prowess could wander around battlefields unmolested and be confrontational with men in power if their primary concern was stories that made sense and were "believable".

Besides the author you linked isn't GRRM, who pretty clearly doesn't have the same opinion when it comes to writing about the subject. At the beginning of her quest to find Sansa, Brienne comes across a band of silent sisters, she asks them if they have seen her sister, but they shake their heads. Later Brienne, Ser Illifer and Ser Longbough come across some poor fellows marching to King's Landing. The poor fellows tell them that even silent sisters have been molested. Ser Crayton remarks that a man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister, even to lay hands upon one. So I don't think they would leave Talisa alone just because she is a nurse (there is no way they would know that anyway other than her telling them).

The point of listing that example in the first place is that there are plenty of things in the show which are not believeable. So I don't think how believeable something is increases or decreases the chances of the writers making the choice to include it.

[Silverx2]

Yeah, but they have no means of knowing she is medical staff if she does not look like one. She looks like a lady travelling alone.

I can understand that the creators might not want to show a character raped or anything. But this does not refute the point that Talisa's character is unrealistic.

She looks like someone covered in blood holding a bone saw.

And while we are on the subject, people talk about some letter she is writing, A common thing for field medics is to keep track of injuries, I suspect what she is writing is actually information about the people she has tended to. "3 Northerners lost feet today"

With regards to her traveling alone, just because you have not seen her with anyone does not mean that she was not accompanying another lord in the beginning, because again a common thing to do when you are going to war, is to bring someone who can fix up your people after the fighting..

[Tadco26]

She looks like someone covered in blood holding a bone saw.

That's not how she appeared in every scene or even most scenes. I'm guessing she didn't travel covered in blood holding a bone saw.

And while we are on the subject, people talk about some letter she is writing, A common thing for field medics is to keep track of injuries, I suspect what she is writing is actually information about the people she has tended to. "3 Northerners lost feet today"

Certainly there are a number of possible explanations of what she could have been writing. Writing a letter doesn't prove nor disprove anything.

With regards to her traveling alone, just because you have not seen her with anyone does not mean that she was not accompanying another lord in the beginning, because again a common thing to do when you are going to war, is to bring someone who can fix up your people after the fighting..

We can speculate that to be a possibility, though there is nothing to support it. I would think she would mention if she was traveling with another lord, particularly when Robb asks her what her last name is and she replies "You want to know what side my family fights for?". Certainly it would be common for a lord to have someone to treat their wounded, but much less common for a lord to bring someone to treat their enemies wounded, which is what many of Robb's men complained about.

[teemo]

so the RW really is going to be this season?

[Maester Ruin]

so the RW really is going to be this season?

Yes, in Episode 9. This Season is based on the first half of a storm of swords (Steel and Snow), and the next season the latter half (Blood and Gold).

[Magic 8 Ball]

She looks like someone covered in blood holding a bone saw.

And while we are on the subject, people talk about some letter she is writing, A common thing for field medics is to keep track of injuries, I suspect what she is writing is actually information about the people she has tended to. "3 Northerners lost feet today"

With regards to her traveling alone, just because you have not seen her with anyone does not mean that she was not accompanying another lord in the beginning, because again a common thing to do when you are going to war, is to bring someone who can fix up your people after the fighting..

What, so she can bill their HMO's, or in case she gets sued for malpractice?

She totes a spy, dawg.

[Maester Ruin]

We can speculate that to be a possibility, though there is nothing to support it. I would think she would mention if she was traveling with another lord, particularly when Robb asks her what her last name is and she replies "You want to know what side my family fights for?". Certainly it would be common for a lord to have someone to treat their wounded, but much less common for a lord to bring someone to treat their enemies wounded, which is what many of Robb's men complained about.

There is nothing that supports that she traveled there totally alone either since they havent talked about it on the show. there is no reason to speculate, and its such a minor, nitpick-detail that i doubt the writers even thought about it.

The concept that she is a spy involved in the RW scheme is even less realistic than the idea that she managed to travel to the riverlands alone. There is no way that the Lannisters/Bolton would concieve a plan that totaly relies on Robb falling in love with Talisa. What if he never noticed her? or got upset when she treated the lannister soldiers, or when she talked back to him? What if he falls for her but still decides that he must keep his oath and marry the frey girl? neither Roose or Tywin really know Robb well enough to predict how he would react to such things, hence they could not have created this Puppet that is tailored so perfectly that Robb is guaranteed to fall in love with her.

And a Lannister spy would not pose as a medic who treats Lannister soldiers right in front of the northern bannermen, that alone is enough to raise suspicion or at least attention, and attention is something you dont want as a spy.

[Maester Ruin]

On the contrary, Robb Stark seemed to try to emulate his father and based all his decisions on what Ned Would have done (wich is to always do the most honorable thing), until he married Talisa. This was fairly obvious to the bannermen around him, especially to Roose since Robb refered to what Ned would have done or what he taught him several times when Roose was trying to give him advice. So its highly unlikely that Roose and Tywin expected him to suddenly do a 180 turn and break his promise with Walder Frey (Ned would never, ever betray such an oath, wich Catelyn tries to point out), and even more unlikely that they conducted a plan that relied on this.

[Shaula Black]

On the contrary, Robb Stark seemed to try to emulate his father and based all his decisions on what Ned Would have done (wich is to always do the most honorable thing), until he married Talisa. This was fairly obvious to the bannermen around him, especially to Roose since Robb refered to what Ned would have done or what he taught him several times when Roose was trying to give him advice. So its highly unlikely that Roose and Tywin expected him to suddenly do a 180 turn and break his promise with Walder Frey (Ned would never, ever betray such an oath, wich Catelyn tries to point out), and even more unlikely that they conducted a plan that relied on this.

That's a good point. The only explanation I can find for this is that Lord Tywin had nothing to loose with this plan, if it didn't work.

[Magic 8 Ball]

She didn't always need to have been a plant with the idea she would seduce and marry Robb.

She could have originally been a Lannister medic, and reporting troop movements to boot, then once she met Robb, fired off the letter saying "hey I met Robb and he digs the way my junk move when I amputate, what I do now?"

Plus, even though as medic she should be perfectly capable of offing Robb in his sleep, that's not the plan. The plan is to lure the ENTIRE NORTHERN ARMY to it's doom.

[Maester Tormund]

There is nothing that supports that she traveled there totally alone either since they havent talked about it on the show. there is no reason to speculate, and its such a minor, nitpick-detail that i doubt the writers even thought about it.

Has she ever been seen talking to ANYONE other than Robb? Does anyone know who she is until she just happens to be there right in front of Robb?

The concept that she is a spy involved in the RW scheme is even less realistic than the idea that she managed to travel to the riverlands alone. There is no way that the Lannisters/Bolton would concieve a plan that totaly relies on Robb falling in love with Talisa.

Except they alluded to the fact that they WERE working on this plan. See Tywin "he will not fail without our help"

What if he never noticed her? or got upset when she treated the lannister soldiers, or when she talked back to him? What if he falls for her but still decides that he must keep his oath and marry the frey girl? neither Roose or Tywin really know Robb well enough to predict how he would react to such things, hence they could not have created this Puppet that is tailored so perfectly that Robb is guaranteed to fall in love with her.

First: Robb might be a king, buts he a very young king. This girl comes into his tent alone in the middle of the night is he reeeaaaalllly gonna say no? Probably not.

Second: In the show Roose is Robb's right hand man so he knows him pretty well.

Third: Her primary objective would not be to make Robb fall for him. That might not even be her job. She might think her job was just to get close enough to Robb to be a confidant. She thinks she makes a mistake by falling in love with Robb, while really this was even better for Tywin.

Tywin takes a pretty girl, says get close to him to find out secrets report back. Its a win-win situation. She gets close enough that she can find out Robb's plans (The Young Wolf is on the move) or she gets close enough that she makes a move and they fall in love giving Tywin ammunition to bring him down.

I don't know about anyone else but Oona Chaplin comes into my tent I'm only really gonna be thinking of one thing.

And a Lannister spy would not pose as a medic who treats Lannister soldiers right in front of the northern bannermen, that alone is enough to raise suspicion or at least attention, and attention is something you dont want as a spy.

Soooo she wants to pose as a compassionate medic then she should only help Northmen right? Because it would make sense for a woman from Essos who supposedly came to help the wounded to ONLY help the wounded from one army?

The biggest question one must ask themselves is, why?

Why did they change the character? They wanted to blend all the Esterlings? They wanted to add some Essos flavor to it all? They just really wanted to use Oona Chaplin so they made a character for her? Why is she at the Red Wedding at all? Why why why why why?

Why do I think these changes were made? The Red Wedding in my opinion is one of the most shocking moments in the series. No one could see it coming. Of course when you go back and reread you see the hints everywhere and feel like an idiot for not reading it. Hell when Greywind was acting all jumpy I thought something bad might happen but I NEVER would have imagined what I was going to read in a few more pages. D&D know that while the show has a wide audience the core of its fanbase lies in the book readers. Since all the book readers know what's going to happen at the RW it really wouldn't be that shocking for us, it would really just be some incredibly gruesome eye candy. The show runners want to do such an infamous scene justice, but they want to add their own touch as well. Their touch is Talisa.

Talisa becomes the shock factor for the book readers. While we know that when Robb and Catelyn step foot into The Twins they will never leave the same we don't know (well we have theories) that neither will Talisa. When the tables turn (literally) and The Rains of Castamere begin to play we won't be shocked. At first. But as I mentioned in my theory before when Talisa begs for her life and explains that she is a Lannister spy and we see the heartbreak play out on Richard Madden's face we'll almost be happy when we see Roose slit her lying throat. But then everyone of us will scream at our televisions as Robb turns his back on Roose, thinking that he has an ally at his back who will fight to the bitter end with him.

[int11]

Does anyone have a link to the video where Talisa is supposed to be shown at the RW?

[Maester Ruin]

Tormund: stop talking about this theory as if it was already a fact. the "hes not going to fail wiithout our help" is just another way of saying "He wont lose a battle unless we defeat him" lol, dont read too much into it. Do you remember how Tywin mockingly dismisses all Spy reports in the same scene? that kinda contradicts the Talisa theory doesnt it? if Tywin had a spy who got information directly from Robb he would probably take it seriously.

yes, roose knows Robb pretty well, but he knows him as a boy who tries to follow Neds path and "always do the right thing", so it would be contradictary to predict him to break his oath to walder frey.

i think they just wanted to "expand" the world by introducing a character from volantis. I also think they wanted to introduce the character and establish the romance earlier, and since Robb doesnt invade the Westerlands in the second season they couldnt do the westerlings story, so when creating the character they took the chance to introduce the viewers to Volantis and the other slave citys (Talisas childhood story) as a foreshadow to Dannys story in s3

[Magic 8 Ball]

Maester Ruin : he DOES invade the Westerlands in season 2. In fact, he invades the Westerling's book castle.

"Not going to fail without our help" implies beating him by some means other than on the battlefield.

If "without our help" means beating him in battle, the converse of this statement implies "if we don't beat him he will win", well, duhh...

"without our help" doesn't even imply a Vietnam-style strategy of not giving a decisive battle. It implies a positive action that doesn't involve engaging in battle.

[Maester Ruin]

Tywin says "We have underestimated the Stark boy for too long, his men worship him and as long as he keeps winning battles they will believe that he is King in the north, you have been waiting for this boy to fail, but he is not going to fail, not without our help".

it means that they basicly cant sit around like idiots and keeping walking into his traps if they hope to win battles, we have to take initiatives and not let robb dictate the fighting anymore. They are talking about battle strategy not tricking the boy into falling in love with a spy to upset the freys and then have the freys kill them at the trident, those kind of complex meta-plots only work in Harry Potter, again how would Tywin know that Robb will fall in love with their Spy. Can he see into the future? Explain to me please because it doesnt make sense. Remember that Tywin dismisses everything that the spies Reports in that scene, why would he do that if he knew their spy was talking to robb personaly and was about to marry him?

In the books the RW was planned out by the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons after they found out that Robb had married Jeyne, why would it have to work out differently in the TV-Series? there is no need for Talisa to be a spy. The fact that Robb and Talisa are genuinly happy togheter makes the Red Wedding more tragic.

[Clariana]

She didn't always need to have been a plant with the idea she would seduce and marry Robb.

She could have originally been a Lannister medic, and reporting troop movements to boot, then once she met Robb, fired off the letter saying "hey I met Robb and he digs the way my junk move when I amputate, what I do now?"

Plus, even though as medic she should be perfectly capable of offing Robb in his sleep, that's not the plan. The plan is to lure the ENTIRE NORTHERN ARMY to it's doom.

Yes this is exactly how I see it. Talisa is not THE SPY, she is a potential spy, a sleeper if you will, who happens to get lucky. I would also imagine she is not the only one, there are probably a few dozen people who have been deployed with different characteristics and professions. The Northerners caught one in season two. Then there is Qyburn, possibly.

This is how you run a spy ring, they are not a front line resource they are back-up, versatile, heterogenous and mostly expendable.

[a free shadow]

Does anyone have a link to the video where Talisa is supposed to be shown at the RW?

Here.

[Maester Ruin]

Yes this is exactly how I see it. Talisa is not THE SPY, she is a potential spy, a sleeper if you will, who happens to get lucky. I would also imagine she is not the only one, there are probably a few dozen people who have been deployed with different characteristics and professions. The Northerners caught one in season two. Then there is Qyburn, possibly.

This is how you run a spy ring, they are not a front line resource they are back-up, versatile, heterogenous and mostly expendable.

well if shes just a "potential spy" much of the "evidence" becomes that where posted in the "Roose honeypot" video becomes invalid, since lots of so called "evidence" there was supposed to suggest that she is a part of the red wedding plan from the start.

[teemo]

Yes, in Episode 9. This Season is based on the first half of a storm of swords (Steel and Snow), and the next season the latter half (Blood and Gold).

thought so....is there a thread about it anywhere? i can't seem to find it.