[Book Spoilers] Sigil of "House Talisa"

[Blutrabe]

No one's going to care about a bunch of Freys when there is is a character that everyone that knows that was a fellow betrayer.

Implicating Talisa in the RW would be the worst thing they could possibly do. The RW must remain the fault of Tywin, Freys and Boltons. No one who reads the books emotionally blames House Westerling for Robb's demise. The emotional blame is on the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons, and it must (and will) remain as such.

But the Freys still need a reason to betray Robb. It should be clear at the end that it was ALL Tywin's doing that led to Robb's fall.

Btw, I agree that Roose is the most likely candidate for the spy.

[Clariana]

:agree: I think if they really wanted to, they could make it where she was a pawn/spy who falls for him. It will still come down to guest right and Freys and Lannisters and Roose and if they kill her too, so much the better.

This is how I see it.

Ohhh I didn't catch this, at all. I guess I'll just take your word for it haha.

And it would still be the Frey's fault. Talisa would be Tywin's pawn.

All the Frey's know is Robb married some foreign girl instead of their sweet sister/cousin/aunt/daughter...

All the Northmen know is Robb married some foreign girl and that pissed the Frey's off....

All Talisa knows was that she was told by whoever was paying her to get close to Robb and to alert whoever is her superior to Robb's every move. She never knew she would fall in love with him...

Entering territory of extreme crackpottery.....

When Gregor Clegane was delivered a message by a Maester with no chain ordering him to evacuate Harrenhal and slaughter all the Northern prisoners he did so without question. He never questioned why the Maester stayed behind, a good dog assumes his master knows best...

All Qyburn knew was that the former spy had stopped sending reports. His responsibility was to find out why and to try and discover any dissension within the ranks. When Robb Stark left the castle in the hands of a disgruntled bannerman Qyburn found the perfect opportunity to present his master's offer...

And behind them all lies Tywin, looking to bring the Young Wolf down.

He knew Talisa would make Robb fall for her and break his promise to the Freys.

He knew the Freys would want revenge.

He knew he could find a lord to assist him in his plots and then help to retake the North.

This could add more tragedy to an already extremely tragic RW. As men turn on each other Talisa screams out that shes one of them, Tywin sent her, not to kill her. We find out that she was a spy the whole time shattering the series "perfect romance". Then Roose Bolton slits her throat. As a heartbroken Robb begins to turn to fight the Freys expecting his bannerman to watch his back a sword pokes out from between his ribs and Roose whispers in his ear

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

edit: I said heartbreak waaaaaaaaaaay to many times

You've filled in the details quite nicely. Yes, this is exactly as I see it panning out.

[Silverx2]

Your post begs the question why would Talisa being a spy ruin the integrity of the RW?

Because the RW is all about choices robb made, and the consequences behind them. Why would the Freys sanction the murder of their king because he broke a vow, if the Vow he broke was marrying the spy they knew about.

This would mean that the RW was the plan all along, and not to have a Frey blood connection to the northern king, which does not make sense.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Because the RW is all about choices robb made, and the consequences behind them. Why would the Freys sanction the murder of their king because he broke a vow, if the Vow he broke was marrying the spy they knew about.

This would mean that the RW was the plan all along, and not to have a Frey blood connection to the northern king, which does not make sense.

:agree:

This whole Talisa scenario would make the writers look very stupid. If Tywin has a "spy" who is Robbs wife, then why doesn't she slit his throat in the middle of the night and slip out of camp (they are married confined to a tent together)? What's the point of the RW?

[Maester Tormund]

Because the RW is all about choices robb made, and the consequences behind them. Why would the Freys sanction the murder of their king because he broke a vow, if the Vow he broke was marrying the spy they knew about.

This would mean that the RW was the plan all along, and not to have a Frey blood connection to the northern king, which does not make sense.

If everyone knows about a spy then that's a pretty shitty spy. If you were going to tell anyone a super secret why in the world would it be Walder Frey? The only ones that know she is a spy are Tywin and, after he gets sucked into it all by allowing Jaime to keep going on towards King's Landing, Roose. Tywin gives Roose one order about the RW; Make sure Talisa does not live. While the Freys eliminate the Northmen, Roose makes sure that Talisa dies and anyone who hears her dies as well. Coincidentally he kills Talisa and then kills Robb just as I mentioned above.

When Roose lets Jaime continue onto Riverrun this will be seen as a betrayal against Robb. Remember TV Robb is furious with his mother for allowing Jaime to escape. Everyone watching will be wondering "Why did Roose not keep Jaime?"

Then during the RW he at first appears to be helping Robb out and saving him. However as Robb turns away Roose kills him shocking all of the viewers and sending them into a deep depression that we all know as the "Post RW Feels".

edit: spelling

[Maester Tormund]

:agree:

This whole Talisa scenario would make the writers look very stupid. If Tywin has a "spy" who is Robbs wife, then why doesn't she slit his throat in the middle of the night and slip out of camp (they are married confined to a tent together)? What's the point of the RW?

Because then its clear Tywin did it. By using the Freys to kill Robb and break the North then the blame can't be put onto Tywin, only onto Walder Frey and Roose Bolton.

[Tadco26]

:agree:

This whole Talisa scenario would make the writers look very stupid. If Tywin has a "spy" who is Robbs wife, then why doesn't she slit his throat in the middle of the night and slip out of camp (they are married confined to a tent together)? What's the point of the RW?

They don't JUST kill Robb at the Red Wedding. They take out the majority of the Stark army and all of his most loyal bannermen, along with his mother and capturing Edmure. Besides the writers do things that make them look stupid all the time. See Sam surrounded by an army of White Walkers and living, or Dany begging to be let in Qarth because they will starve to death and then threatening to come back when her dragons are grown and burn the city down when she is refused entry (pretty hard to do if you starve to death).

If the theory were true (which I don't really have much faith in the writers to expect at this point), obviously they wouldn't tell Walder Frey before hand. They wouldn't even necessarily tell Bolton.

In the books my impression was that Roose didn't necessarily decide to betray Robb until after his wedding to Jeyne and the loss of the Karstarks and so many other allies, along with the loss of Winterfell to Theon. If those things had not happened there is a reasonable chance that Bolton never betrays him, because the Starks would have had a reasonable chance of winning and Bolton just wanted to be with the winner.

[a free shadow]

Because the RW is all about choices robb made, and the consequences behind them. Why would the Freys sanction the murder of their king because he broke a vow, if the Vow he broke was marrying the spy they knew about.

This would mean that the RW was the plan all along, and not to have a Frey blood connection to the northern king, which does not make sense.

So you think you can dance Tywin shared his deception with Freys? :lol:

And in any case, Robb made his choices all by himself.

If everyone knows about a spy then that's a pretty shitty spy. If you were going to tell anyone a super secret why in the world would it be Walder Frey? The only ones that know she is a spy are Tywin and, after he gets sucked into it all by allowing Jaime to keep going on towards King's Landing, Roose.

Just reiterating.

[Clariana]

:agree:

This whole Talisa scenario would make the writers look very stupid. If Tywin has a "spy" who is Robbs wife, then why doesn't she slit his throat in the middle of the night and slip out of camp (they are married confined to a tent together)? What's the point of the RW?

Sheesh... Because she's a spy, now more than likely out of her depth and not an assassin!

Have you guys never seen a half decent spy movie?

PS I mean Le Carré, James Bond doesn't count...

[Maester Tormund]

In the books my impression was that Roose didn't necessarily decide to betray Robb until after his wedding to Jeyne and the loss of the Karstarks and so many other allies, along with the loss of Winterfell to Theon. If those things had not happened there is a reasonable chance that Bolton never betrays him, because the Starks would have had a reasonable chance of winning and Bolton just wanted to be with the winner.

I agree, but I also think he saw an advantage that could be gained. On the wiki (I know not the most reliable) it lists Bolton as the only "Great House" in the North. With Robb becoming King in the North, House Bolton would clearly be the second most poweful house in the North. However if House Stark was eliminated and they needed a new Lord of the North then House Bolton would be the clear choice.

Follow Robb, second place.

Follow Tywin, first place.

[Silverx2]

In the books my impression was that Roose didn't necessarily decide to betray Robb until after his wedding to Jeyne and the loss of the Karstarks and so many other allies, along with the loss of Winterfell to Theon. If those things had not happened there is a reasonable chance that Bolton never betrays him, because the Starks would have had a reasonable chance of winning and Bolton just wanted to be with the winner.

Roose seemed to go out of his way to sabotage Robb.

Everything Robb entrusted to roose failed. Retaking winterfel? Here ill send my son who will destroy it and kill everyone inside. Roose i want you and not Umber to lead my vangaurd, The vanguard gets wiped out, roose later sacrifices the rest to the mountain at the river. Roose hold harrenhal for me. Oh hey jamie lanister, listen sorry about the hand , p.s. you were never here wink wink.

Roose left a trail of deceit and feigned ineptitude

[Maester Ruin]

First of all i dont get all the hating on the writers and complaints about "Lack of sublety". If you look closely you find lots of subtle little details both in the dialogue and cinematography. For example, when Tyrion enters the small council for the first time and talks about his journey, and after he mentions sleeping in a skycell and fithting with hilltribes he sarcasticly remarks "So much to be thankful for", while giving littlefinger a look that basicly says "Thank you for blaming me for that assasination attempt you douchebag", wich completley freezes littlefinger with a look on his face that basicly says "this is not good...".

I believe i watched that scene 3 or 4 times before i even noticed it. I call that pretty damn good subtle writing.

They do a similiar thing with those characters again in the next episode, when Tyrion wants littlefinger to arrange the fake betrothal between Myrcella and sweetrobin, Littlefinger points out what Lysa did to tyrion, to wich tyrion replies "True, but for men in our position, holding grudges can be a dangerous thing, wouldnt you agree?" wich is basicly is another way of saying "I know that you told Catelyn Stark that the dagger used in the assasination attempt on her son was mine, and since im hand of the king i could have your head on a spike if i wanted to so you better do as i tell you"

I call that pretty damn good subtle writing. Just look at pretty much any scene between Littlefinger and Varys, the verbal mindgames are beautifully written and theyre not in the books, its something the writers added that brought the series to levels of amazing television.

[Maester Ruin]

I like the westerling - talisa change. With Jeyne Westerling, i always felt that the "love" between them was something that just happened from nowhere, wich made it cool in a way because you didnt see it coming, but it was a pretty dull love story and there wasnt much substance there beyond the "forbidden love" context. With Talisa on the other hand i can totally see why Robb fell for her, she is everything he is longing for. He was raised to inherit the responsibilities of a high lord of westeros, and thus very much "stuck in the system", even if it has its benefits to be a wealthy lord with a great castle, Robb has been forced to witness and live through all the bad aspects of the feudal system.

Being forced, while still percieved by most as "just a boy", to read the news of your father becoming the victim of a political conspiracy and later beheaded by a ruthless king who has your two sisters, to have to call in your bannermen and lead them into a war against the most powerful family in westeros, and prove to your bannermen (and yourself) that you are worthy of your title and not just a boy who wants to play at war.

In Talisa Robb sees something innocent, someone who comes from another place with another social structure, but with to good of a heart to allow herself to live surrounded by slaves, someone who gave up a noble life and dedicated her life to traveling around and helping wounded strangers.

Robb has clear reasons to dislike "the game", and since Talisa comes from a culture where none of that exists and she has no interest in becoming a part of it, its very natural that he is attracted to her.

its pretty easy to see why Robb finds comfort and "shelter" in Talisa. Because she is not from westeros, she does not have a lord father whom you will be forced to exchange political favors with. I think she sort of allows his mind to escape from westeros and the turmoil he lives in.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Because then its clear Tywin did it. By using the Freys to kill Robb and break the North then the blame can't be put onto Tywin, only onto Walder Frey and Roose Bolton.

The only way to connect Tywin is his comment to Tyrion (some wars are won w/ quills paraphrasing) and then his celebration at "his" victory after the RW, not to mention him not giving the Freys what they want as recompense after, he played them. I would imagine these moments will be in the show as well...

Sheesh... Because she's a spy, now more than likely out of her depth and not an assassin!

Have you guys never seen a half decent spy movie?

PS I mean Le Carré, James Bond doesn't count...

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy... probably one of the most realistic spy movies made.

If your theory is correct, then she is a sex assasin/spy. Trained in the art of wooing the king whilst performing surgery... and extremely unlikely.

First of all i dont get all the hating on the writers and complaints about "Lack of sublety". If you look closely you find lots of subtle little details both in the dialogue and cinematography. For example, when Tyrion enters the small council for the first time and talks about his journey, and after he mentions sleeping in a skycell and fithting with hilltribes he sarcasticly remarks "So much to be thankful for", while giving littlefinger a look that basicly says "Thank you for blaming me for that assasination attempt you douchebag", wich completley freezes littlefinger with a look on his face that basicly says "this is not good...".

I believe i watched that scene 3 or 4 times before i even noticed it. I call that pretty damn good subtle writing.

They do a similiar thing with those characters again in the next episode, when Tyrion wants littlefinger to arrange the fake betrothal between Myrcella and sweetrobin, Littlefinger points out what Lysa did to tyrion, to wich tyrion replies "True, but for men in our position, holding grudges can be a dangerous thing, wouldnt you agree?" wich is basicly is another way of saying "I know that you told Catelyn Stark that the dagger used in the assasination attempt on her son was mine, and since im hand of the king i could have your head on a spike if i wanted to so you better do as i tell you"

I call that pretty damn good subtle writing. Just look at pretty much any scene between Littlefinger and Varys, the verbal mindgames are beautifully written and theyre not in the books, its something the writers added that brought the series to levels of amazing television.

There's a pretty big difference between some reaction shots, and a "spy" plotline that spans two seasons, without much payoff. What you are describing is "subtle acting" not writing.

[Tadco26]

Roose seemed to go out of his way to sabotage Robb.

Everything Robb entrusted to roose failed. Retaking winterfel? Here ill send my son who will destroy it and kill everyone inside. Roose i want you and not Umber to lead my vangaurd, The vanguard gets wiped out, roose later sacrifices the rest to the mountain at the river. Roose hold harrenhal for me. Oh hey jamie lanister, listen sorry about the hand , p.s. you were never here wink wink.

Roose left a trail of deceit and feigned ineptitude

Keep in mind that the Sacking of WInterfell happened AFTER Robb married Jeyne. Roose was given an unwinnable fight in the east, which is why Robb picked him over Umber. He knew that Bolton would be the only one between Lord Tywin and Winterfell. He also knew Bolton was cunning and cautious and wouldn't commit recklessly to battle where they were vastly outnumbered. They were a distraction and defensive force, while Robb's horse raided the west, they posed a big enough threat that the Lannisters couldn't send everyone west.

Although Lord Tywin achieves a tactical victory in the Battle of the Green Fork with a much larger army, Bolton stalls the Lannister army long enough to allow Robb the chance to fall upon Jaime's force unmolested in the Battle of the Whispering Wood capturing him. Most of Roose's army is able to retreat and regroup at Moat Cailin. Later, in an effort to limit Tywin's options, who marched from Harrenhal in an attempt to meet Robb Stark in the Westerlands, Edmure commands Roose to join up with Ser Helman Tallhart coming down from the Twins and to retake Harrenhal.

Arya has already freed the prisoners and Hoat switches sides before Bolton arrives. It is during his time at Harrenhal that Robb marries Jeyne, and Arya hears Ser Haigh and Ser Hosteen telling Bolton that the war is lost and that King Robb must be made to see that. But I don't actually think he was consiidering betraying Robb until after the Battle of Blackwater at the earliest. At that point:

A) Lannisters and Tyrells were allied

B ) Stannis and Renly were no longer a threat to the Lannisters so they could focus all their attention on the Starks.

C) Robb had broken his oath to the Freys

D) Theon had taken Winterfell and the Ironmen controlled Moat Cailin.

E) Jaime had fallen into his custody and the option of freeing him was a huge bargaining chip as an act of faith.

[Clariana]

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy... probably one of the most realistic spy movies made.

If your theory is correct, then she is a sex assasin/spy. Trained in the art of wooing the king whilst performing surgery... and extremely unlikely.

Oh dear, I said to lay off the JB... How many sex assassin spys did you find in Tinker, Tailor...

No. She's more a dupe, a distant relative of the Lannisters who wants to treat wounded soldiers and while she's about it, has been gently asked to keep an eye on the Young Wolf and report back. Then he notices her ... More like Nan Perry say, from "The Spy who came in from the cold", than Ivana Onthetopp...

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Oh dear, I said to lay off the JB... How many sex assassin spys did you find in Tinker, Tailor...

No. She's more a dupe, a distant relative of the Lannisters who wants to treat wounded soldiers and while she's about it, has been gently asked to keep an eye on the Young Wolf and report back. Then he notices her ... More like Nan Perry say, from "The Spy who came in from the cold", than Ivana Onthetopp...

Well it's a beautiful fairy tale... :dunno:

[Stannis the Wight]

It does further support this theory:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

I like it. I like it a lot.

[Dragon Doll]

I don't think she lied about her past, why should she?

There's every reason for a young healer with no alliances to sell information. how else has she been getting supplies?

Perhaps asking Rob about getting supplies was her way of offering to switch sides.

I also don't think she'll be at the RW. Jeyne wasn't. and there's still a slim chance that maybe Jeyne was pregnant? maybe.

It would make sense for her to stay at riverrun and tend the wounded of the riverlands.

[Stannis the Wight]

I seriously doubt that Robb would bring Talisa to the Twins for Edmure/Roslin wedding anyways, it didn't make sense for the books and it wouldn't make sense for TV. I think if Walder Frey was seen being courteous to Talisa and Robb's breaking of his vow TV viewers would grow suspicious and assume something is going to go bad.

Or maybe they will just do it anyways. I'm so excited for these next 9 weeks :)