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[Book Spoilers] Jon's reasoning for joining the wildlings


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It makes sense in terms of the character the show portrays. Jon Show is a bit of a doofus and Mance correctly assessed he wanted to be a hero. It is not implausible an impressionable kid should be so disgusted by a necessary compromise that he might decide to switch sides.

His reasoning doesn't have to make sense in the cold light of day for someone to assume that it was partly genuine.

His argument may have even flattered Mance somewhat too.

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So, he wants to fight for the living, right?? And the Night's Watch do what?? work with the Others?? Even more, Mance Rayder wants to attack the wall, maybe even destroy it... how is that fighting for the living?? Of course, it's in the interest of the wildlings, but they are only a couple hunderd of thousands, Westeros has 40 million!! That's why it makes no sense, working with Mance, he puts in danger many more people!! The version in the books made sense. He was there because he wanted more then a life in NW, and the Westeros society didn't allow him to have that. Of course that made him look like a douche, but it was a lie. It wasn't a perfect argument, Mance didn't fully trust him, but Jon there had a direwolf, was a skinchanger... he was something special, worthy of some risk. In the show, he is nothing.

This so much!

The explanation wasn't all that terrible but I still don't think it makes much sense. How does Jon even know that a turncloak traitor (and this is all that Mance is at this point of the story) fights for the living as opposed to the NW who...what? are in league with the Others?

At least they didn't go with the "I want to be free line" which would have been worse.

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Idk why people are upset with his reasoning. The fact that he was unnerved by Mormont being essentially indifferent towards baby killing is actually better than being all "woe is me" because he's a bastard. The whole reason he joined the NW was because of that wasn't it? Correct me on anything if I'm wrong, I have not read the book for a while.

But the reason he gives isn't by being unnerved by the baby killing, but by wanting to be alive. Which, while a good thing, is not a reason for Mance to believe that he is going to turn his cloak since Jon, presumably, knows the vows he gives at being a part of the NW.

No, for me the reasoning he gives Mance is not strong enough at all to get the buy in for Mance to trust him and think he is actually a turncloak.

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I like the change. It's hard for a modern audience to grasp just how much Jon hates being a bastard, especially given half of us watching were probably born out of wedlock and no one cares.

I liked the explanation Jon gave in the show, and this is as good an explanation as any. I didn't necessarily like it better than the one in the books, but it worked just as well. In the books we get a very good sense of why being a bastard is a definite negative in the 7 kingdoms, but in the show its not as clear.

To people that haven't read the books, the idea that a person is a bastard is NBD. But the idea that Jon was disgruntled about Mormont looking the other way regarding Craster's baby sacrifices makes a lot of sense. At least IMHO.

Somewhat OT, I thought Hinds and Hivju were great as Mance and Tormund.

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No, for me the reasoning he gives Mance is not strong enough at all to get the buy in for Mance to trust him and think he is actually a turncloak.

I agree. In the book version Mance was actually there to see Jons story so its not just some BS reason that he is believing. Also, Id say that more than likely there was truth in Jons story and he was mad about that situation, just not enough to actually turn his cloak for real. Book Jon even thinks to himself that theres only one story Mance will believe.

And seriously, I really hope they dont cut Mance's stories about crossing the Wall and his red stripped cloak. Right now Mance just looks like a turncloak that deserted for a crown. He didnt desert for a crown, or women, or wildling music, he deserted because of that cloak. I've said it before, but these stories let you get to know and understand Mance and I really think it will do the same for viewers. Especially new viewers that think Mance is the bad guy. So far, it doesnt sound like we will be getting any Har!'s from Tormund, I hope they dont change Mance to much too.

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No problem with the TV reason. With "I want to fight for the living", what he is actually saying is "Now I know white walkers are not just a story, I don't see the point of fighting other men (the wildlings) anymore". Which, at the point he left the others at the fist, is what the NW was doing. They see the wildlings as their main enemy and the reason the Wall exists, not the White Walkers. I'm guessing they see things a little different by now as well, but Jon does not know that yet.

Him shifting his priority to fighting the White Walkers is also a good setup for what is to follow.

I actually never totally really bought the book reason. If being a bastard with no future was what bothered Jon, that was already solved by joining the Watch, where family ties didn't matter anymore anyway and he had a future, being groomed for leadership. It didn't matter to me that I didn't totally buy it as I already knew it was false, and the only thing that mattered to me was whether Mance bought it. The reason he did is explained in the book by the stories Mance tells: Jon told him just what he wanted to hear.

I do hope we will get some more of Mance's stories later, but I'm guessing we will, as Mance doesn't have that much to do for a while in the book and I suppose they will want to keep a character this important in the picture.

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No problem with the TV reason. With "I want to fight for the living", what he is actually saying is "Now I know white walkers are not just a story, I don't see the point of fighting other men (the wildlings) anymore". Which, at the point he left the others at the fist, is what the NW was doing. They see the wildlings as their main enemy and the reason the Wall exists, not the White Walkers. I'm guessing they see things a little different by now as well, but Jon does not know that yet.

I agree and disagree with this. While I do think that the reasoning you provide backs the "I want to fight for the living" this is more in tune with Jon's story in ADWD, when he:

Decides that the living-NW and wildings- should stand together against the Others and their wights and takes decisions as LC in order to allow this

It doesn't work the same way at this point of the story because:

- As far as Jon knows Mance is a turncloak and a traitor

- The wildings are planing to fight other men, in this case the NW, in order to storm the Wall. Mance isn't fighting white walkers, his fight is against the NW at this point. He is planning to fight against the living not the dead. And Jon is supposed to know this given that Craster told him that Mance plans to take his army south in season 2.

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I agree and disagree with this. While I do think that the reasoning you provide backs the "I want to fight for the living" this is more in tune with Jon's story in ADWD, when he:

Decides that the living-NW and wildings- should stand together against the Others and their wights and takes decisions as LC in order to allow this

It doesn't work the same way at this point of the story because:

- As far as Jon knows Mance is a turncloak and a traitor

- The wildings are planing to fight other men, in this case the NW, in order to storm the Wall. Mance isn't fighting white walkers, his fight is against the NW at this point. He is planning to fight against the living not the dead. And Jon is supposed to know this given that Craster told him that Mance plans to take his army south in season 2.

The wording is a bit shaky since he really could have said "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." But there's also a reason Mance is heading South, not because he just wants to conquer. Fake Turncloak Jon is basically saying I don't want to follow a man or fight with men that pretend to be something they're not. But again the wording could've been better.

After thinking on it for a while the reasoning is actually sounder in the TV Show, it's just much more poetic in the books and I still prefer it that way.

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The wording is a bit shaky since he really could have said "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." But there's also a reason Mance is heading South, not because he just wants to conquer. Fake Turncloak Jon is basically saying I don't want to follow a man or fight with men that pretend to be something they're not. But again the wording could've been better.

After thinking on it for a while the reasoning is actually sounder in the TV Show, it's just much more poetic in the books and I still prefer it that way.

The reasoning would have possily been sound had he actually said what you posted.

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The wording is a bit shaky since he really could have said "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." But there's also a reason Mance is heading South, not because he just wants to conquer. Fake Turncloak Jon is basically saying I don't want to follow a man or fight with men that pretend to be something they're not. But again the wording could've been better.

After thinking on it for a while the reasoning is actually sounder in the TV Show, it's just much more poetic in the books and I still prefer it that way.

My main problem is with the bold part. I know there's a reason Mance is heading south, but does Jon? I honestly can't remember a moment from the tv show that shows Jon having any idea that the reason Mance is heading south is because he's trying to protect his own people. Book Jon sure didn't! It was something he came to understand much later.

Besides, the whole "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." could easily read "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye when a wilding gives his kids to the white walkers so am going to join an even greater group of wildings because they fight for the living"

Jon's reasoning ignores the evidence that it was a wilding and not the NW the one that sacrifice the kid. So Jon is turning against the NW for ignoring the situation but comes to the conclusion that the party who made the actual sacrifice is the one that fights for the living. And I thought he couldn't get dumber than in season 2. I guess I was prove wrong.

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Besides, the whole "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." could easily read "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye when a wilding gives his kids to the white walkers so am going to join an even greater group of wildings because they fight for the living"

Jon's reasoning ignores the evidence that it was a wilding and not the NW the one that sacrifice the kid. So Jon is turning against the NW for ignoring the situation but comes to the conclusion that the party who made the actual sacrifice is the one that fights for the living. And I thought he couldn't get dumber than in season 2. I guess I was prove wrong.

Do you really think Craster is on Mance's side? He is a known ally of the Night's Watch.

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My main problem is with the bold part. I know there's a reason Mance is heading south, but does Jon? I honestly can't remember a moment from the tv show that shows Jon having any idea that the reason Mance is heading south is because he's trying to protect his own people. Book Jon sure didn't! It was something he came to understand much later.

Besides, the whole "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." could easily read "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye when a wilding gives his kids to the white walkers so am going to join an even greater group of wildings because they fight for the living"

Jon's reasoning ignores the evidence that it was a wilding and not the NW the one that sacrifice the kid. So Jon is turning against the NW for ignoring the situation but comes to the conclusion that the party who made the actual sacrifice is the one that fights for the living. And I thought he couldn't get dumber than in season 2. I guess I was prove wrong.

Show Jon is fully aware that wights/WW's are in full effect again, and it's really reasonable logic to assume they all of a sudden want to head south when they resurface.

Craster is not on Mance's side as much as Tywin Lannister is not on Robb's.

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Do you really think Craster is on Mance's side? He is a known ally of the Night's Watch.

Craster is a wilding and Jon has not much of an idea of what the rest are really like (besides Ygritte who played him like a fool and the rest who murdered his brothers). If a Watch-friendly wilding gives his kids to the others, then what's there to say that the other wildings are not going to be even worse? If we have one wilding giving his kids to the Others and the Old Bear telling him that wildings serve crueler Gods than the rest and with no evidence to the contrary how is Jon to assume that the other wildings are all super cool dudes who fight for the living?

Show Jon is fully aware that wights/WW's are in full effect again, and it's really reasonable logic to assume they all of a sudden want to head south when they resurface.

Craster is not on Mance's side as much as Tywin Lannister is not on Robb's.

My point isn't the potential intentions of the white walkers, but that Jon has no idea what are Mance's intentions.

On what basis does he makes the decision that Mance fights for the living? What has Mance done at this point to show that he fights for the living besides gathering an army to try and storm the very barrier meant to keep the WW at bay?

Jon has no solid evidence to reach this kind of conclusion because he doesn't know Mance beyond the fact that he's a turncloak who's heading south. What circumstantial evidence does Jon posses that shows he knows what fighting alongside the wildings means fighting for the living?

And like I said earlier, Mance has absolutely no plans to fight dead men and white walkers (not that Jon knows this) He is taking his battle against the men of the NW and not the WW themselves.

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I preferred the book reasoning.

The wildlings believe in freedom from societal systems that burden the south, and embrace merit over lineage.

Jon's reasoning that he wants to join the wildlings because he was the bastard his entire life makes sense. You can argue that on the wall being a bastard doesn't matter... but the reality is he only went to the wall in the first place because there was no other place for him, and Mance saw that at the Party. Because his reason directly associates his very personal back story to the strong ideals of the wildlings it was the perfect excuse.

The baby killing thing was pulled out of no where. I guess in the show they made a bigger deal out of it and threw in that whole scene for extra suspense...

Maybe it would have worked if there was more build up to this decision, or if they had explained it better?

It was so rushed I had to go back and rewatch that scene just to make sure I got it right.

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It was a very good change IMO. For one, there was no way they could include the whole Mance was at Winterfell during the royal visit story to set it up in the scene, like it was in the book. Thus, the original reason was not going to work or couldn't play out in the same way. I love it in the book, but if they tried to make it work without the set up, it would of fell very very flat. The reason the show gave was possibly even better, and called in a more recent event from last season, but also did TV viewers the added bonus of reorienting them with the more important back story info that the Free Folk are decedents of the First Men, like Jon, and that they are just as dedicated to fighting/surviving the true enemy, if not far more so.

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Although I really liked Jon's "reasoning" for leaving the NW in the book, I'm totally fine with the change, for several reasons. Firstly, its a totally valid one. Second, it seems a more persuasive argument to put to this Mance, who seems a lot more solem than the book Mance. But most importantly for me, I think it leaves the viewer somewhat unsure as to whether Jon really is still loyal to the Nights Watch. And I think that would be a great thing for his arc. In the book we were always sure of his true loyalties because we were inside his head. I think making it more uncertain adds a lot of depth to Jon's arc.

A slight aside, I personally think this was Kit Harrington's best scene to date. Up till now I've felt his performances, while good, lacked a certain amount of maturity. Though that suited his character in some scenes, I wish he'd dropped the angry little boy act in Season 2. This scene gave me huge hope for his portrayal of Jon this season, I thought his sentiments about the purpose of the Nights Watch in defending the realms of men from the Others were delivered with a real gravity that has been lacking up till now.

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It was an excellent change... Especially for a TV audience.

I have a feeling that if people get to hear Jon being emo and whining about being a bastard one more time, things would be thrown at the TV. Especially considering how clear the book and show made it that Jon had a VERY CUSHY upbringing compared to most men at the wall.

Yeah, it would have been nice to hear Mance's story about being a bard, and seeing him before at Winterfell - but that has nothing to do with Jon's claimed reason that he wants to join the wildlings. I'm not sure why people think one change causes the other. We might still hear about Mance's exploits later.

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One thing that irked me, during his explanation of his reasoning forjoining the wildlings, Jon says "but when I told lord commander, he already knew". Earlier he said that he went beyond the Wall for seasoning with Qhorin Halfhand. He encounters this Craster during that seasoning. And how do you imagine Jon telling commander about what he saw? Sure, theoretically, Jon could have gone (with Qhorin) back to Castle Black (from Craster's keep, which is a couple of days) to tell this to Commander, but would Qhorin suffer such a deviation during a seasoning? I mean, how plausible is that? The bastard boy is lying through his teeth

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I thought the reason in the show was better than the books, it felt like Mance was more intelligebt in the show too cut more to the point rather than blabbering about giving Jon clues about how to convince him. Now Jon gave Mance the impression that the Nights Watch was fighting the wildlings rather than the white walkers and that he was not Ok with that instead of that bastard story

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I got the feeling that when jon told mance "he wants to fight for the living" was as a sort of "the watch fights white walkers.... There not fighting them.... They lied to me.... Why have a watch to stop WW if u ignore them!" it also helps mance calling him a "hero" kinda way. It also helps arc towards ADWD jon storyline.

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