[Book Spoilers] Jon's reasoning for joining the wildlings

[DrRobotnik]

The book version makes more sense. Mance changed cloak for some abstract reason that has to do with his "inner-psyche". It's easy to conceive (and there's a lot of truth to it) that Jon has some kind of complex over his being a bastard, and Mance would sympathize.

However, that's probably too deep for the general audience, so I'm pleased they made that change.

[Abaddon]

It was an excellent change... Especially for a TV audience.

I have a feeling that if people get to hear Jon being emo and whining about being a bastard one more time, things would be thrown at the TV. Especially considering how clear the book and show made it that Jon had a VERY CUSHY upbringing compared to most men at the wall.

Yeah, it would have been nice to hear Mance's story about being a bard, and seeing him before at Winterfell - but that has nothing to do with Jon's claimed reason that he wants to join the wildlings. I'm not sure why people think one change causes the other. We might still hear about Mance's exploits later.

Totally agree. Let's also not forget that the Jon of the books was a 14 year old boy. Show Jon Snow is much older ("17" but played by a 25-year old) and frankly all of the "bastard" whining coming from someone that old would have been really unconvincing at best and eye-stabbingly stupid at worst. He's had time to work through that and any more at this point would be too much.

I think the book explanation was good for the book and the book Snow, but I like the change in the books. It also builds on the previous change they made at Crastor's. I'm not a big fan of that change, but since they made it, I like that they are building on it and doing a good job of that.

[Pixi Penrose]

Yes totally agree that the whining would seem, well whiny coming from the man Jon Snow, not hte boy Jon of the books. I really liked the scene and the changed reason for turning cloak. Made me cheer Jon on for the first time in the show,thinking that he'd actually grown a pair!

I think Tormund was awesome, really the perfect look and physique...very cloe to how I saw him in my mind.

As for Mance, it was kinda the point, that he wasn't this aweinspiring king-type,more like a man who can chose to fade into the background when he wants to, and be a badass when he wants to. I'msure we'll get more "bad-ass-Mance". I thought the way he talked about Qorin Halfhand: "He was my enemy, so I'm glad he's dead...But he was also my brother." really kind of set the mood for Mance's relationship with the NW. He fights them, but he respects themstill in some way. Really hope we get the red-cloak-story,it is quite beautiful.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

My point isn't the potential intentions of the white walkers, but that Jon has no idea what are Mance's intentions.

On what basis does he makes the decision that Mance fights for the living? What has Mance done at this point to show that he fights for the living besides gathering an army to try and storm the very barrier meant to keep the WW at bay?

Jon has no solid evidence to reach this kind of conclusion because he doesn't know Mance beyond the fact that he's a turncloak who's heading south. What circumstantial evidence does Jon posses that shows he knows what fighting alongside the wildings means fighting for the living?

And like I said earlier, Mance has absolutely no plans to fight dead men and white walkers (not that Jon knows this) He is taking his battle against the men of the NW and not the WW themselves.

The point is that the NW is not what it claims to be in Jon's eyes and while he has no idea what Mance is up to exactly, he safely assumes he isn't sacrificing babies to their enemies and is protecting his people by heading south. The only way to escape them is to break through the wall.

Jon is merely offering his allegiance to the side that he would "prefer" to fight for. It's a risk he takes, but using the reasoning of being a bastard is actually more risky since Mance knows the NW doesn't care about bastards or trueborns anymore than wildlings do. He has to hate the NW to want to desert and sounds convincing, and I think his point about how his LC is sort of shady in his principles accomplishes that.

[Stark in Winterfell]

The showrunners did the best they could with Jon's reasoning for joining Mance. In the books, we are privy to so much more information than they have time to reveal in the 10 hours of a season. They obviously want to impart the cataclysmic danger of an Other-led invasion of Westeros, so must tweek some of the story to let non-readers know the gravity of the situation (thus, Jon's disgust at the NW's allowing Craster to continue with his fell deeds becoming his reason, rather than his bastardry; if the NW doesn't stop Craster from empowering the White Walkers with the supple flesh of infants, then they are somewhat complicit). There simply wasn't enough time for Mance to regale Jon with the tale of his time in Winterfell, nor to remind us of Jon's anger at not being a part of the family during the feast in one of the first episodes.

Sure, it could have been handled better, but there is a whole lot of tale they're trying to condense into ten easily understood hours. I'd say most of the viewing public has neither the wit nor the desire to understand the complexities of ASOIAF, so as Thoreu said, they must simplify, simplify, simplify

[Tyrion4President]

I thought this was a better reason than the one in the book. The book reason was pretty weak. And, I don't really see the importance of the Mance Winterfell back story that much, I care more than the personality of Mance seems to be completely different from the one in the books.

The book version is supposed to be weak. Mance is not supposed to fully trust that answer and that is why he keeps telling jon that he needs to do the sideways monster mash with ygritte. that will solidify him foresaking his vows.

[Khal Porno]

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The reasoning would have possily been sound had he actually said what you posted.

He DID say it. He explained all of that leading up to that line.

As I said in the thread complaining about Ghost, I personally thought "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living" to be very stirring and the most memorable line from the episode.

[Khal Porno]

Besides, the whole "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye to our true enemy when it serves their purpose." could easily read "I want to fight for the side that doesn't turn a blind eye when a wilding gives his kids to the white walkers so am going to join an even greater group of wildings because they fight for the living"

Jon's reasoning ignores the evidence that it was a wilding and not the NW the one that sacrifice the kid. So Jon is turning against the NW for ignoring the situation but comes to the conclusion that the party who made the actual sacrifice is the one that fights for the living. And I thought he couldn't get dumber than in season 2. I guess I was prove wrong.

Well no, because Craster was clearly not on Mance Rayder's side. He didn't give a shit about the other wildlings because he was aiding and abetting the night's watch. He only cares about himself and his "wives," which Jon and Mance are both fully aware of.

[Khal Porno]

Craster is a wilding and Jon has not much of an idea of what the rest are really like (besides Ygritte who played him like a fool and the rest who murdered his brothers). If a Watch-friendly wilding gives his kids to the others, then what's there to say that the other wildings are not going to be even worse? If we have one wilding giving his kids to the Others and the Old Bear telling him that wildings serve crueler Gods than the rest and with no evidence to the contrary how is Jon to assume that the other wildings are all super cool dudes who fight for the living?

My point isn't the potential intentions of the white walkers, but that Jon has no idea what are Mance's intentions.

On what basis does he makes the decision that Mance fights for the living? What has Mance done at this point to show that he fights for the living besides gathering an army to try and storm the very barrier meant to keep the WW at bay?

Jon has no solid evidence to reach this kind of conclusion because he doesn't know Mance beyond the fact that he's a turncloak who's heading south. What circumstantial evidence does Jon posses that shows he knows what fighting alongside the wildings means fighting for the living?

And like I said earlier, Mance has absolutely no plans to fight dead men and white walkers (not that Jon knows this) He is taking his battle against the men of the NW and not the WW themselves.

"Have I come to the right place?"

Also, you're forgetting that Jon doesn't actually BELIEVE what he's saying. He still believes the Wildlings are the enemy, and the Night's Watch are the good guys. He's making up a story to convince Mance that he wants to be on his side, and of course he's not going to say "but you know I don't really think you DO fight for the living because Craster is a wildling so that must mean all wildlings are total dicks."

Saying he believes Mance is a good guy is playing to his vanity. But he doesn't ACTUALLY believe it. Not at this point, anyway.

[Eponine]

The best thing about the show is Jon finally shutting up about being a bastard. Seriously though, in the show, it's clear that the writers have decided it's a priority to keep the threat of the Others in the viewers' memories, and they already made past changes toward that goal. Honestly, when I read the books, long periods of time passed where I virtually forgot the Others, or at least they were much less interesting to me than the stuff happening in King's Landing. Bringing it up again as a plot point makes more sense than trying to stuff all the POV whinging into a long conversation.

[morky]

I didn't like the TV version because it made reference to a deviation from season 2 that I personally hated. I wanted to forget it was there: that Lord Commander knew about Craster giving up his sons to the Others and yet did nothing. It makes NO sense. At the end of season one he proclaims that they are going on this large ranging to find Benjen and learn more about the undead enemies. So if the whole point is to search for the Others, then why would he not care when there is one under his nose. Also, why would Mance believe what Jon is saying. He used to be at the NW. He knows the vows. They are supposed to protect the 7 kingdoms from the Others not only from the wildlings.

More on the Old Bear... In the show, they continuously show him in a bad light. The Others incident, making fun of Jon before he leaves with the Halfhand. At this rate, people aren't going to care when he gets killed.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I didn't like the TV version because it made reference to a deviation from season 2 that I personally hated. I wanted to forget it was there: that Lord Commander knew about Craster giving up his sons to the Others and yet did nothing. It makes NO sense. At the end of season one he proclaims that they are going on this large ranging to find Benjen and learn more about the undead enemies. So if the whole point is to search for the Others, then why would he not care when there is one under his nose. Also, why would Mance believe what Jon is saying. He used to be at the NW. He knows the vows. They are supposed to protect the 7 kingdoms from the Others not only from the wildlings.

1. Craster gave them a roof and food. The LC wouldn't put him up for questioning about the Others since they need his hospitality. What will he even tell them that's of much use? Jeor is aware that they'll need to tolerate Craster and continue their ranging once they leave.

2. Mance being in the NW means he's fully aware that the leaders often overlook things when it serves their purpose. This is exactly why he'd believe Jon. And by the way we don't even know the extent to which he believes him, similarly in the books when he chastises Jon for lying and insists on him being watched and laying with Ygritte.

3. They are not showing Jeor in a bad light. That's just your perception. He is like a father to Jon in some regards. He gives Jon his family heirloom Valyrian steal sword. He separates Thorne and Jon for both of their sakes. He is very courteous toward Tyrion, and has a dry sense of humor. Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about, he's the perfect Jeor Mormont.

[victim]

To be honest, I just love the way Kit pronounces "Seasoning." It made me so hungry.

[chewietobbacca]

I'm actually fine with the deviation -- in fact, I think it fits a TV audience much better.

In the books, we are in his head and see his whole issue with being a bastard through his POV. In the TV series, we think Jon is just whiny and naive. This in turn probably ties in better with the DWD Jon as well

As far as Mance's story goes... we'll probably see a lot more of him in the TV series so he'll have plenty of time to tell his story

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I agree with the OP. I usually don't like when D&D try to improve on GRRM and it sometimes gets anoying, but this WAS trully a better, more legitimate reason.

[Tywin's bastard]

I didn't like the TV version because it made reference to a deviation from season 2 that I personally hated. I wanted to forget it was there: that Lord Commander knew about Craster giving up his sons to the Others and yet did nothing. It makes NO sense. At the end of season one he proclaims that they are going on this large ranging to find Benjen and learn more about the undead enemies. So if the whole point is to search for the Others, then why would he not care when there is one under his nose. Also, why would Mance believe what Jon is saying. He used to be at the NW. He knows the vows. They are supposed to protect the 7 kingdoms from the Others not only from the wildlings.

More on the Old Bear... In the show, they continuously show him in a bad light. The Others incident, making fun of Jon before he leaves with the Halfhand. At this rate, people aren't going to care when he gets killed.

Jeor knows about Craster giving up his sons in the book as well. They don't know for sure what takes them but given what they've already seen he's sure to at least suspect that the Others is one of the possibilities. Yet he does nothing in the book either, despite that they are out to find answers. The show doesn't deviate from the book nearly as much as you try to make it out to do.

[sprytel]

The book version emphasized the importance of Mance as a leader of the "Free Folk". That whole scene had a very different feel in the book... there is more of a sense of anarchy and informalness that at first seems completely foreign to Jon, but that he ultimately comes to find really seductive. There should be a tug between duty and happiness... and "am I still just pretending to be one of them?"

On the show, I thought the Wildlings seemed way too intense and serious. I desperately wanted Tormund to brag about his cock. "Har!"

[Clariana]

This so much!

The explanation wasn't all that terrible but I still don't think it makes much sense. How does Jon even know that a turncloak traitor (and this is all that Mance is at this point of the story) fights for the living as opposed to the NW who...what? are in league with the Others?

At least they didn't go with the "I want to be free line" which would have been worse.

I was thinking about this and I concluded that Jon drew some inspiration from walking through the camp and being pelted with stones by the kids... Ygritte comments that it's because he's wearing the wrong colours and then states that some of those kid's fathers may have been killed by the NW. The inference is that the wildings see the NW as representing repression + death, whereas they stand for freedom + life.

When pressed by Mance who cast doubt on his desire to be free, Jon alludes to the second aspect.

[Maester Ruin]

I thought it was a very convincing reason. Heck, when i first saw the scene where jon tells mormont about the babies and mormont is just like "i know, but we need men like craster!", i wanted Jon to leave the nights watch. honestly if i were in the situation where jon is right now in the TV-Series, i would probably join the wildlings for real. Why would anyone want to serve in the Night Watch when its is led by people like Allistar Thorne, and they let people get away with feeding babies to the Others, i never thought the "we need men like craster" argument held up. they need his keep and his food sure, but they could easily just kill Craster or take him prisoner and leave someone to maintain his keep and turn it into an outpost for the Nights watch.

the nights watch is just a little too grim for my Taste. I know its meant to be a pretty harsh service and a life commitment, but all the leaders in the organization are just so cold, depressing and mean. Thorne is an asshole, Mormont is honorable and just most of the time but he is not that cheerful, and the Halfhand seemed totaly disillusioned and apathetic too. In every jon episode/chapter, we are reminded by thorne/halfhand/mormont that the members of the night watch will never recieve any honor or rewards, that they will die in pain, that no one in the south cares about the fact that they are giving their life for them, that they are likely to die outside the wall, etc. they keep reminding us about how hopeless everything is, wich honestly gets tiring.

It seems like the Night Watch is activley trying to break the morale and spirit of their members, wich is completley retarded considering their purpose.

[Magic 8 Ball]

I vote for show over book on this one.

"Wahhh, I didn't get a good seat at my Daddy's fancy dinner party, wahhhhhhh"