[Book spoilers] Bolton/Karstark and Robb Stark at Harrenhal

[ebevan91]

Book Robb has Catelyn impisoned as well...

Yep.

[Eponine]

If Edmure isn't gong to be important, could they make the wedding agreement be for Catelyn? It wouldn't make as much sense insofar as any future husband of hers wouldn't gain a lot from her, but it would have a much greater emotional impact than - we're marrying off some uncle we never met before - it would be a huge sacrifice for Robb's sake on her behalf as a well as a penance for freeing Jaime. It would also IMO make the situation more sympathetic - Robb and Cat don't really feel worth rooting for in the show right now. I think they lost a lot when they took out the focus on Robb's downfall being his inflexible sense of honor, just like his father, and making him just some dumbass who couldn't keep his hands off an annoying chick.

[Maester Ruin]

The thing about Jamies hand is really something i cant forget about, i dont see how they are going to play it out without creating a major plot hole. It cannot happen on boltons orders, Roose would not offend Tywin in that way when he is planning to forge an alliance with the crown. It has to be either Robb or Karstark who gives the order/cuts it off, that would make sense, but i expect Robb to leave harrenhall for Riverrun pretty soon.

[Mr Smith]

( yes, this is my first post here, however I have lurked here for some time and read all the books as well. )

I liked the episode, but I think Robb's part is probably the weakest link.

First of all, the mountain slaughtering all the northmen makes no sense.

Robb says 'the mountain will defend the ruin if Tywin tells him to' and in fact last season we saw Tywin told Gregor to hold the castle for him. Then apparently, he has just.. run away? What the hell. Where did all the northmen come from anyway. When we saw Harrenhal in 2nd season, there were a random bunch of peasants being held captive and tortured. Not northern soldiers.

Then Karstark says '200 northmen dead, and those who killed them are roaming free' - obviously referring to Jamie.

Hello? Jamie didn't kill these guys. It's fking impossible.

Bolton says 'This debt will be paid in full. And he won't run long, I've sent my best hunter after him'.

I'll come back to this later.

So what is King Robb's first reaction on seeing all these slaughtered prisoners? Is it to proclaim bloody vengeance? Give the order to execute Lannister prisoners in retaliation? Nope, it's to lock his mom up. Sorry dude, I'm feeling less and less sympathetic towards you.

So what are your predictions for the Starks during this season, based on the books?

Here are mine, keeping in fact that the Robb storyline has diverged really far from the book and we can't be sure of anything.

Red wedding

Robb

First of all, Robb ( show ) has a secret wedding. So no one knows he has broken his vow yet. So, what leads to the RW? Maybe Walder Frey will keep demanding the wedding to be held at once, and then Robb will have to admit 'gee, sorry, I married this hot volantene chick'.

The Tullys

Edmure Tully wasn't introduced this episode. Yea, it's not like he's Robb's most important bannerman or anything.

They have cast him ( and Brynden ), so they will appear, but it seems like they will be minor characters at best.

At this rate, I can't see the RW being Edmure's wedding, given that show viewers don't even know he exists.

Maybe it'll be Bolton's wedding. Just a thought.

Karstark

The mountain slaughtering all the prisoners including at least one Riverlands knight gives legitimate grounds for K. to demand that King Robb execute some lannister prisoners in retaliation. I believe this is what will happen, Robb will say no and he will take things into his own hands.

By the way, in the books, the Lannisters were quite honorable regarding prisoner exchanges. Eg. Robett Glover and Wylis Manderly. They did execute Ned, but that was due to the stupidity of boy king Joffrey.

The Karstark/Bolton conversation gives me another idea though, maybe K and B will get together to assassinate the King in the North on the grounds that he's an incompetent idiot. And we could have that rather than the red wedding.

Bolton

This one's really difficult to predict. Presumably, he's holding back info on what happened at Winterfell, cause everyone seems to be in the dark about it.

The 'best hunter' is probably the new character named 'Locke'. However, would Roose Bolton's own bannerman cut off Jamie's arm of his own accord? I find this hard to believe.

Alternately, Roose Bolton could cut it off himself, but why? that would doom a Lannister/Bolton alliance.

So what do you think?

Agree with most of this, thought it was a rather poorly done sequence.

Re: Karstark - Give it time, there were hints that things will escalate in the second episode from the promo.

Re: Bolton - I have a theory about Bolton: he's already in allegiance, or at least correspondence, with Tywin. I don't have a whole lot to base this theory upon, other than the glimpse of the letters we saw Tywin writing in this episode, and also that with Bolton, anything's possible.

Re: Red Wedding - If above theory is true, then Tywin maybe knows through Bolton, and has probably approached, or will approach the Freys soon. If not though it doesn't matter. Word always gets out.

[Bittersteel_914]

The thing about Jamies hand is really something i cant forget about, i dont see how they are going to play it out without creating a major plot hole. It cannot happen on boltons orders, Roose would not offend Tywin in that way when he is planning to forge an alliance with the crown. It has to be either Robb or Karstark who gives the order/cuts it off, that would make sense, but i expect Robb to leave harrenhall for Riverrun pretty soon.

I don't necessarily believe they will create a major plot hole...who is to say that Locke will not act upon his own ambitions and defy Roose when he leaves for the Twins? I thought of an interesting theory that Qyburn is an agent of Tywin's intentionally left as a "survivor" so that he can feed information to Tywin on the movements of Robb Stark's army and the current situation in Harrenhal...since Qyburn is a maester (ex-), he knows his letters and should have experience in Ravenry so maybe he will facilitate forthcoming events with Tywin and Roose all the while posing as a benevolent healer...

Robb can still head to the Twins, Jamie & Brienne can still get captured by Locke & Co, Tywin and Roose can begin correspondence, Locke could follow his own ambitions after Roose leaves Harrenhal, Qyburn can stay in the good graces of the Lannisters by attending to Jamie, and Steelshanks Walton could still deliver Jamie to King's Landing so Tywin knows Roose had nothing to do with the actions of Locke...IMO...by introducing Qyburn at Harrenhal this early, they open up the opportunity to follow the book's plotlines accurately...and didn't Steelshanks Walton get casted?

[Maester Ruin]

I don't necessarily believe they will create a major plot hole...who is to say that Locke will not act upon his own ambitions and defy Roose when he leaves for the Twins? I thought of an interesting theory that Qyburn is an agent of Tywin's intentionally left as a "survivor" so that he can feed information to Tywin on the movements of Robb Stark's army and the current situation in Harrenhal...since Qyburn is a maester (ex-), he knows his letters and should have experience in Ravenry so maybe he will facilitate forthcoming events with Tywin and Roose all the while posing as a benevolent healer...

Robb can still head to the Twins, Jamie & Brienne can still get captured by Locke & Co, Tywin and Roose can begin correspondence, Locke could follow his own ambitions after Roose leaves Harrenhal, Qyburn can stay in the good graces of the Lannisters by attending to Jamie, and Steelshanks Walton could still deliver Jamie to King's Landing so Tywin knows Roose had nothing to do with the actions of Locke...IMO...by introducing Qyburn at Harrenhal this early, they open up the opportunity to follow the book's plotlines accurately...and didn't Steelshanks Walton get casted?

well the thing is that the brave companions never worked directly for roose, they where always sort of an independant group (originally sent out by the lannisters if i remember correctly) while Roose is talking about Locke as his "personal" hunter who works exlusivley for him, and Locke should know how important jamie lannister is as a hostage so mutilating him without the starks/boltons permission just because he "wants to" could probably cost him his life. It just doesnt make sense to me.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Tv show spoiler wise, I'm not sure if it would happen, but.....remember in the books...at first Jaime and Brienne ran into outlaws of some sort before the Bloody Mummers found them. Not that I'd buy the sorry sot ones from the books being able to do it, but what if it's a fight with outlaws, or even independant operators who take Jaime's hand instead of this Locke character? It's a stretch, and I still can't believe they aren't giving us a bit of The Mummers. How about even.....Rorge or Biter, somehow?? They at least were cast, and they are at least another reason why it does piss me off that too much of this element of the story is getting cut. I'm pretty easy going with book changes, but.....the dropping of The Mummers does bother me, they effect lots of characters.

Hell, I'm so easy going, I don't even mind the Robb and Talisha changes, I actually think it's hysterical. My daughter and I really do roar with laughter everytime we watch Love at First Site over an amputation. Maybe, Robb would let his wife hack Jaime's hand off, and call it foreplay??? :drool: j/k

[Maester Ruin]

Maybe, Robb would let his wife hack Jaime's hand off, and call it foreplay??? :drool: j/k

lmao

"Kingslayer, remember when you said that you had never seen me with a woman? well now i have finally found someone who knows how to turn me on, let me show you what she does... Darling, come and look at this mans hand, i think its festering!

-Yes my love, if we dont amputate it soon it will spread, hand me my bonesaw.

Here you go, and ive got another tool for you once you are done with the kingslayer *wink wink*

-Should i give him milk of the puppy, my love? i think hes gonna need something for the pain

Dont tease me like that honey pie, you know that i like it rough and dirty. Its not the same without the screams! now do it slowly...

*Jamie screams in pain*

OH BABY YOURE THE BEST, DONT STOP, DO IT SLOWER.. YES, YES!

-Look Robb! look at his face, he is about to pass out from the pain.

I know, and look at all the blood. This is your best work yet, I could live in this moment forever.

Roose: And i thought Ramsay was twisted and perverted...."

[Lady Fevre Dream]

lmao

"Kingslayer, remember when you said that you had never seen me with a woman? well now i have finally found someone who knows how to turn me on, let me show you what she does... Darling, come and look at this mans hand, i think its festering!

-Yes my love, if we dont amputate it soon it will spread, hand me my bonesaw.

Here you go, and ive got another tool for you once you are done with the kingslayer *wink wink*

-Should i give him milk of the puppy, my love? i think hes gonna need something for the pain

Dont tease me like that honey pie, you know that i like it rough and dirty. Its not the same without the screams! now do it slowly...

*Jamie screams in pain*

OH BABY YOURE THE BEST, DONT STOP, DO IT SLOWER.. YES, YES!

-Look Robb! look at his face, he is about to pass out from the pain.

I know, and look at all the blood. This is your best work yet, I could live in this moment forever.

Roose: And i thought Ramsay was twisted and perverted...."

OMG!!! I have found a kindred spirit. LOVE IT!! LMAO!!! :bowdown:

[SerMixalot]

I think I figured out how D&D will handle the Jamie hand thing while being consistent on Roose and his hunter.

Brienne will cut off Jamie's hand when they fight!

[Cynthia Snow]

Book Robb has Catelyn impisoned as well...

Actually he doesn't. When Catelyn releases Jaime, Robb is warring in the west and Edmure is doing the battle of the fords. Two of Edmure's men, I think his castellian and his master at arms, are the ones who confine Catelyn to her father's tower cell, and then Edmure refuses to release her. Then when Robb gets there he does his "Sometimes we make mistakes for love" speech, reveals his marriage to Jeyne, and forgives and releases Catelyn.

[zaphodbrx]

I think I figured out how D&D will handle the Jamie hand thing while being consistent on Roose and his hunter.

Brienne will cut off Jamie's hand when they fight!

This makes sense, but in that case the character of Locke is completely unnecessary.

You could have a bunch of nameless extras capture them and take them to Roose.

[Maester Ruin]

This makes sense, but in that case the character of Locke is completely unnecessary.

You could have a bunch of nameless extras capture them and take them to Roose.

plus, if brienne cuts off jamies hand, he would never go back to rescue her, nor give her Oathbreaker. It would spoil Briennes storyline completley.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I can't imagine getting your hand lopped of clean is very likely in a sword fight without lightsabres.

Maybe your arm but that would also be terrible for the Jaime and Brienne awkward romance.

[Maester Ruin]

I can't imagine getting your hand lopped of clean is very likely in a sword fight without lightsabres.

Maybe your arm but that would also be terrible for the Jaime and Brienne awkward romance.

indeed, and since jamies hands are tied togheter during the fight, it would be almost practicly impossible for brienne to "accidently" slice one of them without cutting off both hands.

not to mention that jamie would likely bleed to death before he reaches harrenhall if it happened out in the wilderness (the trailer shows them fighting on a bridge)

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

If you pause this video at 6:57, isn't that Jaime getting his hand cut off? It's hard to see, really, but it looks like someone being held down and getting a limb chopped off.

[Maester Ruin]

Im most definitely is, and the scenery looks like its taking place in Harrenhall too.

[Minsc]

If Edmure isn't gong to be important, could they make the wedding agreement be for Catelyn? It wouldn't make as much sense insofar as any future husband of hers wouldn't gain a lot from her, but it would have a much greater emotional impact than - we're marrying off some uncle we never met before - it would be a huge sacrifice for Robb's sake on her behalf as a well as a penance for freeing Jaime. It would also IMO make the situation more sympathetic - Robb and Cat don't really feel worth rooting for in the show right now. I think they lost a lot when they took out the focus on Robb's downfall being his inflexible sense of honor, just like his father, and making him just some dumbass who couldn't keep his hands off an annoying chick.

If they have Robb forcing his mother to marry Walder Frey in penance for his own mistake then I will cheer when they hack his head off and replace it with Grey Wind.

[Stannis the Wight]

If they have Robb forcing his mother to marry Walder Frey in penance for his own mistake then I will cheer when they hack his head off and replace it with Grey Wind.

Well said

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

You guys realize they cast Roslin and everything, right?