[book spoilers] A major possible pop theory hint in the Tyrion & Tywin scene?

[Words of Winter]

You know, I agree with the OP.

Tywin says something like, "...since I cannot prove you are NOT MINE" during that scene.

He put a very strong emphasis on the words "not mine," and I, too, got the impression that this was giving us a big hint.

IMHO, Tywin sees Tyrion as a misshapen punishment from the gods. Tywin's flaw is pride. His son is supposed to be a reflection of him, a continuation of the power and prestige of the Lannister name. Tyrion could only be his son as a punishment or the prodigy of some undesirable. But he obviously was born of Tywin's wife, so if he isn't his, his wife wasn't faithful to him which also is a ding on his pride.

[Big Daddy Dave]

I think too much is made of this. The line (to me) simply means Tywin wishes Tyrion wasn't his, but hates that he was stuck with him. Even if there was something behind Selmy's story, it would impact the twins being Tywin's and not Tyrion. And even if something did happen between Aerys and Tywin's wife, I can see it being something that's never revealed in the books, only implied. And for me that makes it more interesting and tragic, that Tyrion in the end might have been the only child Tywin had, and he spent his life shitting on him.

[A Redeemed Hound]

My first topic post here. I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere already, but I myself have yet to see the thread or read a post mentioning it.

So I thought for those like myself who are aware of the "Mad Aerys and Joanna Lannister = Tyrion" theory, that it was perhaps of note that in the episode Tywin says to Tyrion the since "I cannot prove you are not my son" line. Though I haven't recently re-read the corresponding chapter in Book 3, I did think I recognized the line as being taken directly from the text. But although the whole scene more or less was taken right from the GRRM's original text, I did think it was rather notable, and suggestive, that D&D saw fit to make sure this particular line made it into the episode. Given that A) they know the broad strokes of the final two books, and their most important secrets/reveals, and thus whether or not A+J=T B] they typically IMO rarely seem to include those dear lines us book fans scrutinize endlessly for theory clues (because they are most often not ever plainly in the dialogue of a dramatic scene worth adapting), and yet C) do when they can give the hints and teases they can about whats to come (their version of the House of the Undying), I think its reasonable to think that if the theory is true, this line was very deliberately included, and that vice versa, its inclusion gives further suggestion of the possible truth of that theory.

It may be a stretch, but it's something I for one am seriously thinking about.

Tyrion IS a Targaryen and one of the heads of the dragon so yes you are correct. Tywin's line regarding him not being able to prove Tyrion is not his son is directly from the books. Tyrion is a Targaryen. Hence his fascination with dragons his entire life.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

:agree: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75441-a-j-t/

here's a link to an interesting A+J=T thread that's been active in ADwD section for a while now for anyone who's interested. We have some heated debates back and forth, but the overwhelming reason against the theory is simply "I don't like how it changes [my] perception of Tyrion/Tywin". Not exactly a textual/reasonable/logic based argument. I have faith that GRRM could pull this off w/ aplomb, but some have gone so far as to say they will burn their books if true... :dunno:

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Tyrion IS a Targaryen and one of the heads of the dragon so yes you are correct. Tywin's line regarding him not being able to prove Tyrion is not his son is directly from the books. Tyrion is a Targaryen. Hence his fascination with dragons his entire life.

Agree with you 100%. In fact I think it's obvious. The theory draws a lot of animosity because people think that if it's true, it somehow ruins Tyrion's story. This is very silly.

[episodenone]

Tywin DOES call Tyrion his son in the show. When Tyrion asks why his father wants him in King's Landing. Tywin: because you're my son. In the first season.

THANK YOU. Case Closed.

[Tywin's bastard]

THANK YOU. Case Closed.

While I'm not necessarily behind the theory that doesn't close any case at all. Tywin wants something from Tyrion and acts nice to him. When he doesn't need Tyrion anymore he explains how he's nothing to him.

[theREALjonsnow]

:agree: http://asoiaf.wester...ic/75441-a-j-t/

here's a link to an interesting A+J=T thread that's been active in ADwD section for a while now for anyone who's interested. We have some heated debates back and forth, but the overwhelming reason against the theory is simply "I don't like how it changes [my] perception of Tyrion/Tywin". Not exactly a textual/reasonable/logic based argument. I have faith that GRRM could pull this off w/ aplomb, but some have gone so far as to say they will burn their books if true... :dunno:

if we get a certain two-headed dream from Tyrion after he flees KL i think it will definetly be CASE CLOSED! :cool4:

fingers crossed this makes it into the show cause this would be a perfect way to end his storyline for season 3 im thinking... he has just killed Tywin/Shae & possibly joeffry (CHANGE FROM BOOKS I KNOW) & vows to return for cersi & the rock. he is on a ship with mopatis who is bringing him to danny & as he drifts off to sleep...

That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slwe him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

if we get a certain two-headed dream from Tyrion after he flees KL i think it will definetly be CASE CLOSED! :cool4:

fingers crossed this makes it into the show cause this would be a perfect way to end his storyline for season 3 im thinking... he has just killed Tywin/Shae & possibly joeffry (CHANGE FROM BOOKS I KNOW) & vows to return for cersi & the rock. he is on a ship with mopatis who is bringing him to danny & as he drifts off to sleep...

That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slwe him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

If they show Jaime's Weir-stump dream then I will hold out hope for that, but so far they seem reluctant to get too into the dreams. At least they showed us Bran's "wolf dreams", I was afraid they would be cut as well.

I'm glad you posted that particular passage... He fights beside Barristan (targ loyal) and Bittersteel (an allusion to Aegon?) against his father and brother. The two heads he has are reminiescent of Maelys the Monstrous, perhaps, but also obviously allude to the conflict raging in his heart.

[Maester Ruin]

Wow, its amazing what crazy theories people can puzzle togheter out of just a couple of lines. As Tyrion said to Jon, all dwarves are bastards in the eyes of their fathers. This Line from Tywin just confirms this, and that he hates Tyrion in general for his whoring and drinking and other activities that brings "Shame" to their House and Family. Tyrion is Tywins son, Tyrion has all the lannister traits (except he is a dwarf. but he is a blonde dwarf) and has the ingelligent, political mind of Tywin,

I cant help but feel a little depressed when i read crazy theories like this. I mean come on the books are amazing and parts of that is because they have a few great mysteries and revealations in them, but that doesnt mean that you have to go out of your way to create a mystery theory where there its not needed.

Ill name 3 reasons that debunks this "Tyrion is a Targaryen" theory completley, and then lets never bring it up again shall we?:

1. As we all know, Aerys II was paranoid and after the defiance of duskendale he became a recluse that never ever left the Red Keep, except for when he attended the Tournament of Harrenhall because he thought it was a meeting event for a group of houses that where planning to conspire against him. the Lannisters where not there.

Joanna lived in Casterly Rock, raising Jamie and Cerscei. When and how was this J+A Rape supposed to take place? Did the king, who never ever left the red keep because of his paranoia, Suddenly take a host of his kingsguard with him and rode to Casterly Rock to Rape Joanna, without anyoneone stopping him from just entering casterly rock and making his way to Joannas bedroom?

Lets pretend this actually happened (and you have to be pretty delusional to actually belive that the part above did), are you telling me that no one noticed or informed anyone about this? None of the hundreds of guards in casterly rock, or the hundreds of servants, or Joanna HERSELF, told ANYONE that The Mad King had Raped Joanna and gotten her Pregnant? Or just that he had been seen near Lannisport and Casterly Rock? if Tyrion was Aerys son, Tywin would have the proof he was talking about in this episode.

2. Women in westeros can do Abortions. Remember that time when Baelish got Lysa Tully pregnant and her father gave her moon tea to abort the pregnancy? Joanna could have done that if she was raped by the mad king and got pregnant.

3. Who is gonna reveal this to the readers/tyrion? the entire theory banks on the ridicolous concept that this somehow happened in secret, and not even Joanna told anyone about it. And if someone knew about it, WE would already know this too since it would be such a major thing that most likely would have caused a Rebellion sparked by the Lannisters. This is not one of those scenarios where that one guy who knew that it happened comes out of the closet 30 years later and approaches Tyrion and tells him that "by the way, youre half targaryen since Aerys Raped your mother".

So lets summarize this, if Tyrion is indeed half-targaryen, that would mean that the king who was famous for only leaving his keep at one occasion after the defiance of duskendale, actually did leave it one more time (people just forget to mention that for some mysterious reason, right?) to go to Casterly Rock, where he managed to sneak into Joannas bedroom without being noticed by anyone whatsoever, then proceeded to rape her and get her pregnant. Joanna would then neither tell Tywin or anyone else that she was raped by the mad king, and she would actually decide to KEEP the mad kings baby when she has the option of abortion, again without telling anybody, and instead pass it off as Tywins child and die giving birth. And somehow, despite the fact that no one knows about all this, the readers and Tyrion are going to find out about it in the books from... Who?

Seriously guys this.does.not.add.upp

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

Wow, its amazing what crazy theories people can puzzle togheter out of just a couple of lines. As Tyrion said to Jon, all dwarves are bastards in the eyes of their fathers. This Line from Tywin just confirms this, and that he hates Tyrion in general for his whoring and drinking and other activities that brings "Shame" to their House and Family. Tyrion is Tywins son, Tyrion has all the lannister traits (except he is a dwarf. but he is a blonde dwarf) and has the ingelligent, political mind of Tywin,

I cant help but feel a little depressed when i read crazy theories like this. I mean come on the books are amazing and parts of that is because they have a few great mysteries and revealations in them, but that doesnt mean that you have to go out of your way to create a mystery theory where there its not needed.

Ill name 3 reasons that debunks this "Tyrion is a Targaryen" theory completley, and then lets never bring it up again shall we?:

1. As we all know, Aerys II was paranoid and after the defiance of duskendale he became a recluse that never ever left the Red Keep, except for when he attended the Tournament of Harrenhall because he thought it was a meeting event for a group of houses that where planning to conspire against him. the Lannisters where not there.

Joanna lived in Casterly Rock, raising Jamie and Cerscei. When and how was this J+A Rape supposed to take place? Did the king, who never ever left the red keep because of his paranoia, Suddenly take a host of his kingsguard with him and rode to Casterly Rock to Rape Joanna, without anyoneone stopping him from just entering casterly rock and making his way to Joannas bedroom?

Lets pretend this actually happened (and you have to be pretty delusional to actually belive that the part above did), are you telling me that no one noticed or informed anyone about this? None of the hundreds of guards in casterly rock, or the hundreds of servants, or Joanna HERSELF, told ANYONE that The Mad King had Raped Joanna and gotten her Pregnant? Or just that he had been seen near Lannisport and Casterly Rock? if Tyrion was Aerys son, Tywin would have the proof he was talking about in this episode.

2. Women in westeros can do Abortions. Remember that time when Baelish got Lysa Tully pregnant and her father gave her moon tea to abort the pregnancy? Joanna could have done that if she was raped by the mad king and got pregnant.

3. Who is gonna reveal this to the readers/tyrion? the entire theory banks on the ridicolous concept that this somehow happened in secret, and not even Joanna told anyone about it. And if someone knew about it, WE would already know this too since it would be such a major thing that most likely would have caused a Rebellion sparked by the Lannisters. This is not one of those scenarios where that one guy who knew that it happened comes out of the closet 30 years later and approaches Tyrion and tells him that "by the way, youre half targaryen since Aerys Raped your mother".

So lets summarize this, if Tyrion is indeed half-targaryen, that would mean that the king who was famous for only leaving his keep at one occasion after the defiance of duskendale, actually did leave it one more time (people just forget to mention that for some mysterious reason, right?) to go to Casterly Rock, where he managed to sneak into Joannas bedroom without being noticed by anyone whatsoever, then proceeded to rape her and get her pregnant. Joanna would then neither tell Tywin or anyone else that she was raped by the mad king, and she would actually decide to KEEP the mad kings baby when she has the option of abortion, again without telling anybody, and instead pass it off as Tywins child and die giving birth. And somehow, despite the fact that no one knows about all this, the readers and Tyrion are going to find out about it in the books from... Who?

Seriously guys this.does.not.add.upp

Never said that there wasn't plenty of valid reasons to not consider the theory as potentially true, or even sensical, as you seem to find it not, but I will suggest that you're filling in many of the gaps with a confirmation bias of you're own. As far as I know, the timeline on the possible impregnation of Joanna and her whereabouts at the time is ambiguous. Clearly Tywin was in KL serving as Hand around the time Joanna conceived Tyrion, so its not unreasonable to think she may have been in KL as well at that time for Tywin to even knock her up. In other words, we don't have to assume that impregnating Joanna for either Tywin or Aerys involved making a trip to Casterly Rock, though of course you are right that its silly to think Aerys would have made such a trip, where as for Tywin it would be normal. We also though, do not have to assume that Aerys putting a baby into Joanna involved violently raping her for all of the Westerlands to hear. There is no reason to assume that other than to try to make the theory sound more implausible than it really is. The same goes for your point about the "abortions". Moon Tea has no guarantee of success mind you. Also, who's to say she would have rushed to abort. Maybe she wanted to keep the baby, and hide the truth from Tywin? Why? Who can say? Maybe she though the baby was Tywin's?

Overall, I'm not overly interested in defending the merits, or lack there of, for a theory I myself am not sold on in the way I say am of R+L=J, or other more strongly evidentially supported theories. I actually mostly don't think its true, just that it may be interesting if it was. I just was interested in provoking a discussion about it. I won't have it be said that there is something wrong with that. Clearly it's working.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

I personally think out of the Lannister children, mayhaps the twins not be Tywins due to The Mad King's creepy (and rude... He said this AT his wedding!) wish that The Lord's Right was still legal.

It would be interesting to see how oh so proud 'Self-Pronounced-Tywin-With-Teats' took to being a bastard and not a Lannister, and how Jaime deals with having killed his own father.

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

I personally think out of the Lannister children, mayhaps the twins not be Tywins due to The Mad King's creepy (and rude... He said this AT his wedding!) wish that The Lord's Right was still legal.

It would be interesting to see how oh so proud 'Self-Pronounced-Tywin-With-Teats' took to being a bastard and not a Lannister, and how Jaime deals with having killed his own father.

Yeah in some practical ways it does seem more likely that the secret Targs would be the twins, but most people seem to ignore this, or want to ignore it, myself included, because its not half as fan/dramatically satisfying as if Tyrion had dragon blood. I myself just want the three heads of the dragon to be Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, whatever that means, be it just dragon riders, linked heroes, or actual blood relatives, I don't care. Let my confirmation bias be known. All three killed their mothers, and all three are major POVs. Its just that simple.

...though of course I care more for Arya and her story any of the rest nearly combined.

And somehow, despite the fact that no one knows about all this, the readers and Tyrion are going to find out about it in the books from... Who?

I forgot to adress this. Its a more than fair question, but for me personally, I actually almost dont even want to see Tyrion ever find out, just for the reader to be given enough to safely accept it as undeniable and true, i.e. the way we all know......

Bynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is the Thre Eyed Crow, even though Bran has no idea who that is, nor would he even really care per say.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

Yeah in some practical ways it does seem more likely that the secret Targs would be the twins, but most people seem to ignore this, or want to ignore it, myself included, because its not half as fan/dramatically satisfying as if Tyrion had dragon blood. I myself just want the three heads of the dragon to be Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, whatever that means, be it just dragon riders, linked heroes, or actual blood relatives, I don't care. Let my confirmation bias be known. All three killed their mothers, and all three are major POVs. Its just that simple.

...though of course I care more for Arya and her story any of the rest nearly combined.

Fair enough. I'd like Tyrion to be the third head if only because Dany and Jon are written to be stunning, perfect, beloved yada, yada, yada... Imagine if TYRION rode Drogon? That would be awesome.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Why this insistence on ruining the Lannister family dynamic? :ack:

[Maester Ruin]

None of the Lannister siblings are Targaryens, sorry. There is no way Aerys could have raped Joanna without 1. Joanna telling tywin, and probably causing the lannisters to raíse their bannermen in revolt much like Robert did and. 2. Joanna aborting the pregnancy.

The fact that women in westeros can conduct abortions simply by drinking a special tea means that for any of these theorys to work, Joanna must have wanted to carry the mad kings babies, and perhaps even want to go to bed with him in the first place. this is impossible to believe considering how repulsive Aerys looked with his long hair, beard and fingernails, and the fact that we know that Tyrion and Joanna had a happy marriage and that she probably loved him as much as we know Tywin loved Joanna.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I agree with the theory. Tyrion is the son of Mad Aerys who monstrously raped Joana Lannister just to spite Tywin. It is known.

[Maester Ruin]

I agree with the theory. Tyrion is the son of Mad Aerys who monstrously raped Joana Lannister just to spite Tywin. It is known.

so you believe that joanna got raped by Aerys but never told Tywin nor abort the pregnancy with moon tea? well i guess you cant convince someone who has already sacrifised logics and rational thinking for their belief in a crazy theory...

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

@Maester Ruin chk out the thread I linked to up-thread (A+J=T) there is a lot more evidence than just Tywin's statement. Another big hint would be that all three heads of the dragon had their mothers die in childbirth (Jon, Dany, Tyrion). There is also some really interesting conversations/comeradery between Jon and Tyrion in AGoT, not to mention Tyrion's shadow reference, and Maester Aemon's comment about Tyrion...

Also Barristan reveals that Aerys was once quite charming, and even in his madness still could be at times. Joanna and Aerys were pretty close growing up IIRC, so rape is not the only option here... Especially with an ever distant and angry Tywin as a husband.

In any case it may not be true, but it is far from impossible. As to who could reveal it; duh Barristan Selmy has seen it all, and cannot by his own oath withhold those secrets from Dany.

[theREALjonsnow]

or Gerion Lannister... :drunk: would be a much better reveal imo