Tyrion is a Targaryen (His Siblings may be as well)

[mattah84]

Just checked the dates, and Tywin was hand for eight years after Tyrion's birth. I think that's fairly conclusive, I don't see Tywin for hanging around that long after Aerys raping or seducing his wife, or Aerys successfully hiding this from him.

Tywin and the Lannisters sacked Kings Landing, but Aerys originally let Tywin in thinking he would help him defend the city. I for one think that Tywin did this because Aerys was keeping Tywin's trueborn son Jaime in Kings Landing, and he was livid that he might be raising Aerys' kid Tyrion in Casterly Rock.

Tywin may feel that Tyrion may not be his, but he can't prove it. He also probably loved HIS COUSIN Joanna whom he married, and may never have felt she was unfaithful until Tyrion was born. She died giving birth to Tyrion, so if this is the case Tywin was never able to confront her about the infidelity. Also, given that Tywin was hand for eight years after Tyrion's birth, I think it makes it more likely that he could be Aerys'. Had Tywin not been hand when Tyrion was born, it could be reasoned that Joanna was never in a position close to Aerys for it to be possible. But since Tywin was hand at the time of Tyrion's birth, I actually think it makes it even more likely.

Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, so he can't do anything about it but raise him as his own. I doubt he weighs the decision about killing or washing his hands of a potential son of his lightly. Maybe he felt that Tyrion wasn't his, or that Joanna was unfaithful, but he can't really prove it as Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.

Also, all of Tywin's cruelty towards Tyrion really starts to make sense when you think about how Tywin might be under the impression that Tyrion is not his kid.

[Mladen]

A bit of sarcasm there. Nice.

Well, I changed my MO, since open criticism doesn`t work :)

I don't necessarily think that the Dragons have to be ridden. Three Heads of the Dragon doesn't necessarily have to mean three dragon riders. I for one think the Three Heads of the Dragon are probably just Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal, and part of the Azor Azai prophecy was fulfilled when she pulled them from the fire.

Also, the Dragons could potentially be warged instead of ridden. The warging of Dragons probably caused the mini-doom at Hardhome.

However, three is a number that is synonomous with the Targs. Three heads in their sigil, aegon the conqeror and his two sisters had three dragons, and now Dany has three dragons. Quaithe says the number three will be very important for Daenarys in one of their conversations.

Riders, heads, whatever. In order to predict something based on very unreliable source, you miss what you already have. The whole idea `dragon has 3 heads` maybe have worked in Rhaegar`s head, but it may not be true. Try to focus on what`s going on, and what is, not what might happen that is predicted by some prophecy,

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

The Lannister line can be traced back to the Age of Heroes when Lann the clever swindled the casterly's out of casterly rock. As such, they do not descend from Targs.

[mankytoes]

Tywin and the Lannisters sacked Kings Landing, but Aerys originally let Tywin in thinking he would help him defend the city. I for one think that Tywin did this because Aerys was keeping Tywin's trueborn son Jaime in Kings Landing, and he was livid that he might be raising Aerys' kid Tyrion in Casterly Rock.

Tywin may feel that Tyrion may not be his, but he can't prove it. He also probably loved HIS COUSIN Joanna whom he married, and may never have felt she was unfaithful until Tyrion was born. She died giving birth to Tyrion, so if this is the case Tywin was never able to confront her about the infidelity. Also, given that Tywin was hand for eight years after Tyrion's birth, I think it makes it more likely that he could be Aerys'. Had Tywin not been hand when Tyrion was born, it could be reasoned that Joanna was never in a position close to Aerys for it to be possible. But since Tywin was hand at the time of Tyrion's birth, I actually think it makes it even more likely.

Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, so he can't do anything about it but raise him as his own. I doubt he weighs the decision about killing or washing his hands of a potential son of his lightly. Maybe he felt that Tyrion wasn't his, or that Joanna was unfaithful, but he can't really prove it as Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.

Also, all of Tywin's cruelty towards Tyrion really starts to make sense when you think about how Tywin might be under the impression that Tyrion is not his kid.

It's pretty well established Tywin was just picking the winning team, remember the crucial battle at the trident had already been fought.

It's also pretty well established Tywin and Joanna loved each other, so I don't see why she would cheat on him with a monster like Aerys. Or the mentally ill Aerys outwitting the highly intelligent Tywin to keep this a secret. If there's one characteristic about Tywin, he doesn't get played for a chump, certainly not by someone like the Mad King.

He could easily have arranged for Tyrion to have an "accident", like Randyl Tarly threatened. I'm assuming he didn't want to be a kinslayer.

But they also fit the reasons given, that he's a whoring dwarf who caused Joanna's death.

You're clutching for straws a bit now, your theory doesn't fit what we know about Tywin, Joanna OR Aerys.

[noSer]

I don't necessarily think that the Dragons have to be ridden. Three Heads of the Dragon doesn't necessarily have to mean three dragon riders. I for one think the Three Heads of the Dragon are probably just Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal, and part of the Azor Azai prophecy was fulfilled when she pulled them from the fire.

Also, the Dragons could potentially be warged instead of ridden. The warging of Dragons probably caused the mini-doom at Hardhome.

However, three is a number that is synonomous with the Targs. Three heads in their sigil, aegon the conqeror and his two sisters had three dragons, and now Dany has three dragons. Quaithe says the number three will be very important for Daenarys in one of their conversations.

Wait a second...back up...how did warging dragons cause Hardhome? Must have missed that? Though I do believe that someone, probably Jon, will warg a Dragon at some point. Also I don't know if I want Tyrion to be a Targ, but I think anyone saying that it's not possible is really blinding themselves to a lot of clues that were put there just for that reason. The real question isn't the existence of evidence, but if the clues are just a Red Herring.

[lady m]

I'm open to the possibility, after all, we'll need a third head of the dragon if Aegon turns out to be a fake.

To quote Bloodraven, a dragon is a dragon, be it red or black. Aegon is still a dragon, even if he's a Blackfyre. Blackfyres even had prophetic dragon dreams.

As for the OP, it makes no thematic sense for Tyrion to be anyone's but Tywin's. Tyrion is Tywin in miniature. He, like Cersei, but unlike Jaime, buys into Tywin's Lannister family values lock, stock and barrel. Both Tyrion and Cersei try their damnedest to be their own version of Tywin Lannister.

[mankytoes]

To quote Bloodraven, a dragon is a dragon, be it red or black. Aegon is still a dragon, even if he's a Blackfyre. Blackfyres even had prophetic dragon dreams.

Yeah, Daemon was Targ on both sides, so by blood, there's no reason a Blackfyre should necessarily be any less of a Targ than a Targ.

[Lion of Judah]

It's that time of the month again I see, the time for everyone and their grandparents to be Targayens.

[Beorn Snow]

I don´t buy into Aerys having an affair with Joanna, or Targ blood in the Lannister bloodline.

I´ll tell you what I would find a funny revelation:

If Jaime and Cersei were really Aerys children and Tyrion was Tywins only trueborn son. Cersei´s fascination with wildfire and slow descent into insanity. (Much like her real father). While Tyrion being ironically the only one denied Casterly Rock.

Buuuut. This is not the case. The Lannisters have blonde hair, sometimes whitish. Deal with it :P

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There are a lot of characteristics about Tyrion Lannister that make you stop and question whether or not he is really One Hundred Percent a Lannister.

I don’t think so but lets see.

The first of these is his hair color being more White rather than the typical Lannister Gold. "so blonde it looks almost white."

Lancel and Tommen don’t have Lannister gold either. I think that Kevan was described as yellow not gold either. Devan was also yellow

The second one, which I think alludes to Tyrion being a Targaryen more than his hair color, are his mismatched eyes, one of them black and one of them green. The only other character I can think of that had two different eye colors was a Targaryen, Shiera Seastar. Sheira was one of Aegon V’s children.

Not true Euron has mismatched eyes too. Black and blue

The next few pieces of evidence that we have linking Tyrion to potentially being a Targaryen, are his dragon dreams which he confides to Jon Snow. This could be a Red Herring put into the books by GRRM, but it is from the very beginning in A Game of Thrones when Tyrion goes to the North so I don’t necessarily think that is the case.

So it has to be "dragon dreams" and not the imagination of a child?

Also, Danaerys has a vision in the House of the Undying of a White Lion running through Grass Taller than a Man. This seems to allude to Tyrion, though it could signify Jaime as well as he has a White Kingsguard Cloak. But I think that the grass taller than a man part of it, seems more likely that it is Tyrion as he is a Dwarf, and it would be much easier to find grass that is taller than him as opposed to Jaime.

Huh?

Next there is the attraction or lust which we are led to believe that Aerys Targaryen had for Tyrion’s mother Joanna Lannister.

That is gossip. There is no proof that he actually done anything.

Another thing that has left me wondering about Tyrion’s bloodline since it happened, is when he fell into the water well traveling to Essos. We heard about so many people getting sick from Grey Scale from either falling in the water, or coming into contact with it. However, when Tyrion falls in and is saved from the water, NOTHING happens to him. So Tyrion seems pretty invulnerable to disease so far.

So you say that Targs don’t get sick because at this case the Great Spring Sickness disagree(s) vigorously and the dead Daeron the Good, Valarr and Matarys Targs all of them

Finally, there is a pretty interesting link between Danaerys, Jon Snow, and Tyrion (All Possible Targaryens). Danaerys is definitely a Targaryen, and Jon Snow is most likely a Targaryen, as he could be Lyanna and Rhaegar’s child. Tyrion we know is at least part Lannister, however as I stated we don’t really know how the Lannister Blood Line originated as we only go so far back as Tytos (Tywin’s father), so he could in fact be part Targaryen. There is the both Lannister Blood Line that we don't know one hundred percent about, and there is the lust that we are told Aerys had for Tywin's wife. Dany’s mom died while giving birth to her, Lyanna probably died giving birth to Jon Snow, and Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Tyrion. It is wierd that GRRM would write it this way and have it be a coincedence, but maybe it is. Plus, all three of their moms dying at birth is something that we find out about in AGOT so it is something that he had planned from the beginning of ASOIAF obviously.

as I have said before

Even nowdays childbirth is dangerous just imagine how it was in medieval.

In the books died in chilbirth:

Dalla- non Targ baby

Joanna Lannister- non Targ baby

Minisa Whent- non Targ baby

Tyana Wylde- non Targ baby

Maegelle Frey- non Targ baby

Jeyne Royce- non Targ baby

Mors Umber's wife- non Targ baby

Rhaella - Targ baby

Lyanna- Targ baby

so I don't think that is about Targs babies.

Womens IRW who have died in childbirth: http://en.wikipedia....d_in_childbirth

[Ame]

It's that time of the month again I see, the time for everyone and their grandparents to be Targayens.

+1

Tywin hates Tyrion; if he wasn't his son then certainly no waging treasonous wars on his behalf; no unlimited supply of money, no becoming Master of Coin, no getting Sansa Stark; nothing.

Furthermore if Tyrion isn't Tywin's son no strict upbringing learning how to behave, no being told to avoid things beneath his dignity like acrobatics etc, in other words much of what people here define as abuse doesn't happen.

[King of Winters]

+1

Tywin hates Tyrion; if he wasn't his son then certainly no waging treasonous wars on his behalf; no unlimited supply of money, no becoming Master of Coin, no getting Sansa Stark; nothing.

Furthermore if Tyrion isn't Tywin's son no strict upbringing learning how to behave, no being told to avoid things beneath his dignity like acrobatics etc, in other words much of what people here define as abuse doesn't happen.

Yeah, sums it up

[Mladen]

Plain and siple, if Tyrion wasn`t Tyin`s, why would he be left alive? After all, dwarf babies were usually killed at the birth. And if anyone starts claiming `Joanna made Tywin promise her`...

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Tyrion is a Targ and he will ride Viserion, it is known.

[King of Winters]

Plain and siple, if Tyrion wasn`t Tyin`s, why would he be left alive? After all, dwarf babies were usually killed at the birth. And if anyone starts claiming `Joanna made Tywin promise her`...

:agree: I hate it when people say that Tywin loved Joanna so much that he kept her baby alive.

[Corvo Attano]

If Tywin got the slightest scent that Tyrion wasn't his son, he would have killed him straight away. Aerys couldn't have hid it from Tywin; Aerys was too insane and Tywin too clever. If he did turn out to be a Targ, that would ruin the entire series for me. I don't even like the idea that Jon might be a Targ, much less Tyrion. If you ask me, the Trag's just need to end. Their dynasty in Westeros is finished, they should either remain in Essos or Die. Dynastys don't go on for ever, one they've run their course, they die out. Dany and Ageon (and Jon if he is one) should just accept their time is at an end.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Also don't forget Genna's quote

...Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

And I think she knew what she was talking about.

[mattah84]

+1

Tywin hates Tyrion; if he wasn't his son then certainly no waging treasonous wars on his behalf; no unlimited supply of money, no becoming Master of Coin, no getting Sansa Stark; nothing.

Furthermore if Tyrion isn't Tywin's son no strict upbringing learning how to behave, no being told to avoid things beneath his dignity like acrobatics etc, in other words much of what people here define as abuse doesn't happen.

Tywin couldn't prove that Tyrion wasn't his kid. He loved his wife Joanna, but Joanna could of been raped by Aerys for all we know. Tywin was Aerys' Hand when Tyrion was born. Being that Joanna died during childbirth, Tywin was never able to find out the truth. On the slight chance that Tyrion was his kid, Tywin did not want to kill him or disregard him because then he would be cursed by the Gods and maybe be labeled as a kinslayer. Actually, he would of been a Kinslayer either way even if Tyrion isn't his kid, because Joanna was Tywin's cousin and Tyrion is definitely HER kid. So either way, whether Tyrion is Tywin or Aerys', Tywin would be a Kinslayer for killing the baby.

Tyrion was considered a member of House Lannister, and Tywin is the type of man not to let any slight go unpunished, whether it is Jaime taken hostage, or Tyrion taken hostage. So yes Tywin would start a war to get "Tyrion who the majority of people in the realm views as Tywin's Son" back and protect the image of House Lannister.

Tywin putting Tyrion as "Master of Coin" was actually a demotion for Tyrion. He was the Acting Hand of the King before Tywin returned at the Battle of the Blackwater. Tyrion getting Sansa Stark was more of a slight then anything, but it was also a strategic move on Tywin's part. Before Robb died, the Starks led the North and had a lot of loyalty from the Northern Houses. They still probably have the loyalty, but definitely can't lead as they are scattered now. Keeping Sansa in Kings Landing was a way for Tywin to try and control events North of the Trident. I'm pretty sure Robb Stark was still alive when Tyrion married Sansa, but if not it could of still been a move made by Tywin to keep a Stark in case the family still has any influence in the North.

Tywin raised Tyrion the best he could on the chance that he was in fact his kid. But Tywin was also very cruel to Tyrion, even forcing Jaime to lie to Tyrion about Tysha not really loving him, and that is part of what makes me feel that even Tywin himself had doubts that Tyrion was really his kid with Joanna.

[Amoracchius]

First to OP, well done, now if you would make acquaintance with `search engine` you would find out that there are more than one thread with the same topic. Last one reached 400 posts, and that was last week, I think

And this is the proof that newbies have no fresh ideas.

No, this is proof that a lot of people are interested in this theory and that people new to the site may not know how to search through old threads. No need to be rude or insulting.

[Mladen]

Tywin couldn't prove that Tyrion wasn't his kid. He loved his wife Joanna, but Joanna could of been raped by Aerys for all we know. Tywin was Aerys' Hand when Tyrion was born. Being that Joanna died during childbirth, Tywin was never able to find out the truth. On the slight chance that Tyrion was his kid, Tywin did not want to kill him or disregard him because then he would be cursed by the Gods and maybe be labeled as a kinslayer. Actually, he would of been a Kinslayer either way even if Tyrion isn't his kid, because Joanna was Tywin's cousin and Tyrion is definitely HER kid. So either way, whether Tyrion is Tywin or Aerys', Tywin would be a Kinslayer for killing the baby.

You really stretched the term kinslaying. Robb had killed Karstark, and although some people think that as kinslaying, no one in Westeros did. Tywin could have easily killed Tyrion without any fear of Godly retrebution.

Tywin putting Tyrion as "Master of Coin" was actually a demotion for Tyrion. He was the Acting Hand of the King before Tywin returned at the Battle of the Blackwater. Tyrion getting Sansa Stark was more of a slight then anything, but it was also a strategic move on Tywin's part. Before Robb died, the Starks led the North and had a lot of loyalty from the Northern Houses. They still probably have the loyalty, but definitely can't lead as they are scattered now. Keeping Sansa in Kings Landing was a way for Tywin to try and control events North of the Trident. I'm pretty sure Robb Stark was still alive when Tyrion married Sansa, but if not it could of still been a move made by Tywin to keep a Stark in case the family still has any influence in the North.

Tywin gave Tyrion a worthy position, in the Small council. There can be only one Hand. And he gave him opportunity to rule half the Westeros through Sansa. Tyrion could have got much worse... Robb was alive, but Tywin was already orchastrating the RW.