"They're All So Beautiful", a documentary on race and dating

[Happy Ent]

This hits the nail on the head, I guess.

I fail to see the epistemological or moral difference between “Asian women are smart and hot” and “guys with certain types of facial hair are total creepers.” More generally, the whole assumption underlying the fake moral outrage over Yellow Fever is in itself an example of collectivism pure and simple. Othering.

Not that I can get especially riled up about collectivism. Its part of human psychology and here to stay. But at least stop stereotyping the stereotypers; it’s intellectually inconsistent. (Also, vapid and facile.)

[Minaku]

This hits the nail on the head, I guess.

I fail to see the epistemological or moral difference between “Asian women are smart and hot” and “guys with certain types of facial hair are total creepers.” More generally, the whole assumption underlying the fake moral outrage over Yellow Fever is in itself an example of collectivism pure and simple. Othering.

Not that I can get especially riled up about collectivism. Its part of human psychology and here to stay. But at least stop stereotyping the stereotypers; it’s intellectually inconsistent. (Also, vapid and facile.)

It all begins with the unsettling staring-at or fixation on you by someone. The facial hair only adds to it. Facial hair on its own doesn't a fetishist make.

But, seeing as you are a tree, I doubt anyone has decided they want to fuck you on the assumption that trees make the best sexual partners, it is known. But only redwood-type trees. Conifers are too uppity and don't respect men.

Edit: I honestly shouldn't be responding to either you or Tempra, because as long as this issue has been discussed on the board, you guys should understand by now that people who are objectified or victimized have an inherent distrust of other people and are much more likely to make judgment calls, oftentimes correct, about the people who approach them. I'm not interested in helping turn this thread around to accusing people who have been the object of the fetish of being just as racist as the fetishists. Especially when the people making those accusations have probably never experienced anything to the degree that we have.

[Castel]

It all begins with the unsettling staring-at or fixation on you by someone. The facial hair only adds to it. Facial hair on its own doesn't a fetishist make.

But, seeing as you are a tree, I doubt anyone has decided they want to fuck you on the assumption that trees make the best sexual partners, it is known. But only redwood-type trees. Conifers are too uppity and don't respect men.

True,and he's also never gotten comments about his creep/pedo-moustache. Happy Ent may have us Homo Sapiens beat.

It all begins with the unsettling staring-at or fixation on you by someone. The facial hair only adds to it. Facial hair on its own doesn't a fetishist make.

But all fetishists prefer a specific type of facial hair which allows us to conveniently mark them? And facial hair, after someone has already been found to make you (slightly) uncomfortable, is a valid way to tell that someone is creepy because we all know that some hair styles are just inherently creepy. People need to go read the studies.

[Tempra]

I think pornstache and douchestache are good places to start as far as creepiness goes. Also the thin 'stache. Not like Prince rocks, but the Sharpie line across the top of the lip.

Edit: Did you even watch the video, Tempra? It's like the producers deliberately went out and picked the scariest dudes possible.

Pretty much what HE said. Between your comments on facial hair and TP's racist stereotyping (based on personal anecdote!), I find the outrage over yellow fever to be inconsistent and hypocritical. You can be outraged for people stereotyping Asians as docile and obedient, but FFS stop stereotyping other people.

And, no, I haven't had a chance to watch the video in the OP.

[Minaku]

Pretty much what HE said. Between your comments on facial hair and TP's racist stereotyping (based on personal anecdote!), I find the outrage over yellow fever to be inconsistent and hypocritical. You can be outraged for people stereotyping Asians as docile and obedient, but FFS stop stereotyping yourself.

And, no, I haven't had a chance to watch the video in the OP.

How about you go watch it first, and listen to the interview on This American Life?

Dismissing the concerns of people who have been affected by the actions of fetishists - Terra, me, Eponine just to start with - makes you look like a gigantic asshole.

This American Life segment: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/491/tribes?act=3

They're All So Beautiful, part 1:

[Castel]

How about you go watch it first, and listen to the interview on This American Life?

Dismissing the concerns of people who have been affected by the actions of fetishists - Terra, me, Eponine just to start with - makes you look like a gigantic asshole.

I don't see the problem. Your experiences have not been dismissed, he's just pointing out an inconsistency in your reaction. Didn't we do the same to people who said that curvy women were 'real women'? It's not the fact that this has happened to you that's in question: it's the consistency in your outrage.

Now, you can come up with a defense by claiming that the racial objectification is worse that judging someone based on their beard because of history, culture etc, (but I don't see how this affects your personal behavior') and so it's something else completely but I don't see a problem with the question.

[Minaku]

I don't see the problem. Your experiences have not been dismissed, he's just pointing out an inconsistency in your reaction. Didn't we do the same to people who said that curvy women were 'real women'? It's not the fact that this has happened to you that's in question: it's the consistency in your outrage.

Now, you can come up with a defense by claiming that the racial objectification is worse that judging someone based on their beard because of history, culture etc, (but I don't see how this affects your personal behavior') and so it's something else completely but I don't see a problem with the question.

I already said that the facial hair only adds to the creepiness. There are people you meet with no facial hair (and this goes to women too, women who have yellow fever) who just give you the crazy vibe and you want to run away. Facial hair is like the cherry on top.

Edit: So much for trying to play along with someone who's doing his best to troll me. Though I hold to pornstache and thinstache being creepy no matter what.

Edit 2: Tell Me More interview with Debbie Lum

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/22/155571292/for-one-man-she-had-to-be-pretty-and-asian

[Ormond]

I personally have a really hard time with the comment Though I hold to pornstache and thinstache being creepy no matter what.

I don't know what the motives of previous posters have been but I'm certainly not trying to troll anyone, and I don't see how that statement is very different from the "They're all so beautiful" concept in regard to women of East Asian ancestry.

I have watched the video (though haven't had time to listen to the NPR piece yet), and I think I get that being automatically assumed to have certainly personality characteristics of docility or sexual behavior just on the basis of your appearance would be offensive and creepy.

But I also think associating a certain style of mustache with pornography is an offensive stereotype. This association has been artificially created by media portrayals just as the association between Asian ethnicity and docility has been created by media portrayals. So as much as I often disagree with Tempra and Happy Ent, I do think they have a point here.

[Castel]

I already said that the facial hair only adds to the creepiness. There are people you meet with no facial hair (and this goes to women too, women who have yellow fever) who just give you the crazy vibe and you want to run away. Facial hair is like the cherry on top.

Edit: So much for trying to play along with someone who's doing his best to troll me. Though I hold to pornstache and thinstache being creepy no matter what.

I'm not? I may be overly sarcastic but my goal is never to just try to piss people off just for fun. I was making a point. If I'm too snarky it's because I find this topic very odd.

As for facial hair:

Questionable as in "it makes this person look like a total creeper." There is facial hair that is acceptable on a person, and then facial hair that sets every single nerve to jangling. Or maybe I just hate facial hair.

This makes it seem as if some types of facial hair is intrinsically creepy.

[Happy Ent]

Especially when the people making those accusations have probably never experienced anything to the degree that we have.

You know nothing.

But again, this hits the nail on the head. Some of us are principled. We like debating morals and principles from a point of view that universal ethical or epistemological rules exist and are independent of the person who makes the claim.

Others, like you, Yags, Kalb, and a bunch of other evaluate the veracity of claims based on who makes them. Lenin boiled this mindset down to Kto? Kovo? Morality is not determined by the action, but by the who acts and who is acted on of the action. I find that mindset unhelpful for informed discourse (because it shifts focus from the issue to the perceived power balances between ill-defined group), intellectually vapid, logically broken, and morally questionable. (I do understand the usefulness of this approach in a political struggle. I just find it boring, intellectually.)

You mileage may of course differ. But, yes, I explicitly reject your precondition that the veracity of a claim depends on who makes it. I’m strongly fetishising the Enlightenment tradition here, and am quite open about that. I understand that I am in a minority. (However, at least a lot of Asians and Jews agree.)

[Datepalm]

Yeah, why stereotypes bad hair like that? Some guys with awful facial grooming fetishize feet, and they don't even have to be Asian feet.

[Minaku]

I personally have a really hard time with the comment Though I hold to pornstache and thinstache being creepy no matter what.

I don't know what the motives of previous posters have been but I'm certainly not trying to troll anyone, and I don't see how that statement is very different from the "They're all so beautiful" concept in regard to women of East Asian ancestry.

I have watched the video (though haven't had time to listen to the NPR piece yet), and I think I get that being automatically assumed to have certainly personality characteristics of docility or sexual behavior just on the basis of your appearance would be offensive and creepy.

But I also think associating a certain style of mustache with pornography is an offensive stereotype. This association has been artificially created by media portrayals just as the association between Asian ethnicity and docility has been created by media portrayals. So as much as I often disagree with Tempra and Happy Ent, I do think they have a point here.

I'm having a hard time formulating a response to this, so it's likely you'll just get a ramble. Personally, I don't care for facial hair. Nothing against the people who have facial hair, though it is a statement of personality to have (or not to have) facial hair. It's quite possible that the majority of the men who've hit on me have had facial hair of some type or the other and I've developed quite the distaste for it as a result. As long as the person with facial hair and I are not entering into a romantic relationship or have attraction, I'm totally okay with facial hair. It doesn't bother me. There are some mustaches that are crazy and glorious. There are beards that are impressive. The difference between admiring that facial hair or not being bothered by that facial hair is that the man with the facial hair isn't also hitting on me at the same time.

So, I guess the way you have to look at this is through the lens of someone who suspects that a, the man making a pass at you is interested in you SOLELY because of your ethnicity, and b, he happens to sport a look that the woman being hit on does not prefer.

I somehow doubt that me not liking facial hair is equivalent to me not liking an entire race of people. I see the point that Tempra et al. are making, and I agree there may be something there, but I disagree that it's just as bad for me to make these judgments.

Edit: It is much easier to make these arguments based on the perspective of the individual than on a meta basis. Mostly because it really boils down to the individual experience. People have also been burned by making broad statements on the board. I mean, look at what's happening right now.

[Alcibiades]

Well, the main difference between the facial hair and ethnicity is that facial hair is a choice, right. Judging someone based on his facial hair is more like judging someone based on the cloths he or she is wearing. Someone with that stache decided to grow it despite, or perhaps because of, any cultural associations that happen to go along with it. It's all sort of arbitrary and bullshitty, but at least the facial hair was a decision by the facial hair wearer to present himself in that way.

ETA: some grow facial hair for religious reasons, but I don't think that's the sort we're talking about here, right.

[Minaku]

I'm not? I may be overly sarcastic but my goal is never to just try to piss people off just for fun. I was making a point. If I'm too snarky it's because I find this topic very odd.

As for facial hair:

This makes it seem as if some types of facial hair is intrinsically creepy.

Sorry Castel, I wasn't trying to say you were trolling me. Tempra and I have had differences of opinion in the past. I hope I made that more clear when I called him an asshole.

Some people like facial hair in their romantic partners. I am not one of them.

Well, the main difference between the facial hair and ethnicity is that facial hair is a choice, right. Judging someone based on his facial hair is more like judging someone based on the cloths he or she is wearing. Someone with that stache decided to grow it despite, or perhaps because of, any cultural associations that happen to go along with it. It's all sort of arbitrary and bullshitty, but at least the facial hair was a decision by the facial hair wearer to present himself in that way.

ETA: some grow facial hair for religious reasons, but I don't think that's the sort we're talking about here, right.

Right. Facial hair that is a necessity for various religions is always exempt.

Tempra was also in the thread about dressing for a night out at the opera and other such events, and I believe he was in the group that had a problem with others who judged based on clothes alone. So him pointing out this facial hair thing isn't completely out of left field as far as my expectations go. It's just the fixation on the facial hair that bothers me. It isn't just the facial hair. It's the total package.

[Tempra]

Min,

I am not trolling you or dismissing anyone's concerns about Yellow Fever. I just object to your belief that a man's facial hair has any bearing on his status as a "total creeper."

I suspect you would rightfully object that calling a woman a slut for having a tramp stamp, or wearing too much make up, or a short skirt is unfair and sexist. So, too, is your comment unfair and sexist.

[Kolantero]

I fail to see the epistemological or moral difference between “Asian women are smart and hot” and “guys with certain types of facial hair are total creepers.” More generally, the whole assumption underlying the fake moral outrage over Yellow Fever is in itself an example of collectivism pure and simple. Othering.

Well said.

Personally I wouldn't actually mind any facial hair-stereotypes-judgements that much (I've got a rich beard anyway :D ) but when this is done in a thread complaining about stereotypes then the whole situation becomes... surrealistic.

[Minaku]

Min,

I am not trolling you or dismissing anyone's concerns about Yellow Fever. I just object to your belief that a man's facial hair has any bearing on his status as a "total creeper."

I suspect you would rightfully object that calling a woman a slut for having a tramp stamp, or wearing too much make up, or a short skirt is unfair and sexist. So, too, is your comment unfair and sexist.

I've already said that the facial hair thing is the cherry on top of a distasteful sundae. It's like the little extra creeper bonus. The dude already is acting like a creeper for various reasons (bad pickup line, attempting to speak Asian language, etc.). Adding the facial hair puts it over the top for me. You can lambast me all you like for not liking facial hair in a romantic partner but you won't convince me that I'm being unfair and sexist towards men who are trying to pick up an Asian woman.

I'm not sure how I can detail what exactly sets off the Yellow Fever Alarm.

[Castel]

Well, the main difference between the facial hair and ethnicity is that facial hair is a choice, right. Judging someone based on his facial hair is more like judging someone based on the cloths he or she is wearing. Someone with that stache decided to grow it despite, or perhaps because of, any cultural associations that happen to go along with it. It's all sort of arbitrary and bullshitty, but at least the facial hair was a decision by the facial hair wearer to present himself in that way.

ETA: some grow facial hair for religious reasons, but I don't think that's the sort we're talking about here, right.

So...basically if I do not agree with your view on a particular type of facial hair or clothing it's okay that I then be stereotyped as creepy? Sure I chose to wear them, but I didn't chose to be considered creepy. But of course, I should bend to your views on it based on absolutely no evidence and more than likely backwards reasoning to prove an intuition already taken as fact and cut it or suffer the consequences. See the example about tramp stamps and revealing clothing above.

I'm not surprised by this view, we had a thread on it before, I'm just surprised that anyone would state it outright.

I somehow doubt that me not liking facial hair is equivalent to me not liking an entire race of people. I see the point that Tempra et al. are making, and I agree there may be something there, but I disagree that it's just as bad for me to make these judgments.

Well, my instinct is to agree though I'm finding it hard to pin down why.

That said, this is a slippery slope for personal responsibility. Is it okay to make fun of skinny girls because they're better represented in the media and therefore "stronger"? Regardless of the cultural context, you are still choosing to do something to someone that you don't want done to you and the reasoning is exactly the same. Whatever else is happening, you are choosing to do something that you would have found morally questionable in other situations.In a practical sense it may not require any sort of concerted push to correct but we're not always being practical. In fact, if I agree with HE on anything it's on that, practical considerations masquerade as moral causes.

[Sci-2]

This conversation over 'staches just seems like derailment. But yes, if we must acknowledge it, judging people on facial hair is bad. Done.

That said, I don't see a problem in liking a particular racial or ethnic category's appearance. I'm assuming yellow fever is a bit more like a fetish though, which does enter into creeper territory though I can see some grey area here.

I do get the issue with assumptions about personality, in this case Asian women being "docile" or "knowing a woman's place" or all the other creepy shit I've heard.

[Tempra]

I've already said that the facial hair thing is the cherry on top of a distasteful sundae. It's like the little extra creeper bonus. The dude already is acting like a creeper for various reasons (bad pickup line, attempting to speak Asian language, etc.). Adding the facial hair puts it over the top for me. You can lambast me all you like for not liking facial hair in a romantic partner but you won't convince me that I'm being unfair and sexist towards men who are trying to pick up an Asian woman.

I'm not sure how I can detail what exactly sets off the Yellow Fever Alarm.

There is a difference between finding a person unattractive because he has facial hair and assigning him a negative personality trait because of said facial hair (even if its just the cherry on top). No one is asking you to find men attractive because they have facial hair. If someone is creepy, then they are creepy for reasons unrelated to their grooming habits.