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Is Syrio Forel really dead?


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Likewise, we don't even get a description of Syrio's death, Cersei comments that the 'dancing master interfered' with Trant and make no mention of the outcome. To me if he was dead, his head would've been mounted on the spikes in Kings Landing along with the rest of the Stark household. GRRM is never gonna come out and say "Yes Syrio is dead" or "Yes, Syrio and Jaqen are the same FM", he will simply tell us to "draw our own conclusions".

Exactly. Now think about it, was it Roose or was it not Roose? And now apply the same logic to did Syrio survive or not. It's the same literary technique, and Roose is even more vague.

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If a tree falls in the middle of the woods but there's no one around to hear it, did it really fall? This is basically the argument we've come to.

The tree fell, and Syrio died.

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I tried to post this last night but it didn't take...

We do know it's very likely that we're going to learn more about Braavos in the next book (or two). I expect this will shed some light on Jaqen and possibly on Syrio , whether he comes back into the story " in person " , or not.

There are several interesting puzzles about Braavos, some that revolve around the Sealord, and how the succession of the office works , as well as how the Sealord relates to the Iron Bank and the House of Black and White.

Some that could shed light on Syrio are .. How does the position of first sword work ? Do they , like the KG , become secret keeper as well as dueller in chief ? Are they like a personal bodyguard ? Are they in charge of other household or city guards ? Do they swear to the individual Sealord or to the office of the Sealord ? Or do they take no oath, but are merely hired ( e.g. ,limited but renewable contract) ? Syrio became first sword when his predecessor died. How did he die ? Is the position normally for life, or are retirements for age or infirmity common ? If so, how common ? What happens to a first sword when the Sealord dies ?

How long had Syrio's Sealord been building his menagerie ( these things take time )...since becoming Sealord or from before his ascension ? ( In other words, had he been the Sealord long when he hired Syrio , and did the previous first sword serve him ? ) Does the current sealord keep a menagerie? How long has the current Sealord ruled?

( That last question is interesting to me also because of Dany's memories . The circumstances of her and Viserys' ouster from the House with the Red Door ..turned out by the servants ...seems to me to mark a state run residence undergoing a change in policy ... not just tossed as a result of Darry's death, but perhaps the death of the Sealord who signed the marriage agreement as well... therefore, his policies might not be continued.) Too bad, if Syrio is dead. He may have been present during the whole negotiation process and the agreement ... which means he just might know something about Oberyn's sellsword company , such as when and why it was founded , or what it's called.

How did the last Sealord die ? Naturally ? How did Darry die ? Naturally ?

Through Arya's POV we learn that the current Sealord is dying and when the Sealord dies , then the knives come out. ...What does this mean ? Is it meant literally , or not ? Does it refer to a struggle between those vying for the office , or does it refer to a more general housecleaning ? If the latter , would a first sword be exempt ? ( Assuming he would not run. )

There are clearly questions around Jaqen and the FM, too. Rules and principles laid out to Arya, a new recruit, may not all apply to a graduate or elite FM. Arya is told she must kill only her target , but obviously, that's not a hard and fast rule for Jaqen. There seem to be two types of assignments for FM, since they're trained to gather information as well as in the art of assassination. The alchemist appears to be on a spying mission in Oldtown.. he had the leeway to pick out and kill Pate on his own authority. And likewise with Jaqen , the whole repaying of the 3 lives in Harrenhall can't have been standard practice, according to what Arya has been taught so far. A trained FM is the product of what must be an expensive education , they must be allowed to take lives to preserve themselves for the benefit of the order , if nothing else ( as judiciously and sparingly as possible , of course ). How much license do they have in the field ?

Is the face that Jaqen and the Alchemist seem to share the true face of a particular FM ? Are they really one and the same ? If so , did Jaqen return to Braavos before Oldtown ? Was the Kindly Man expecting Arya , and feigning surprise at her appearance ... or not ? If Jaqen's second face was not his own , was one of those faces a glamour rather than a full FM face change ? If so, which ? What is J / A's status within the FM..journeyman ? adept ? elite? What are his origins ?

From what we've seen ,FM are trained not to act ( kill) out of their own personal feelings , but they are people like anyone else. We see Jon , Jaime , Brienne and Barristan ,to name a few , all struggle with the vows and code of ethics they've sworn to abide by. Personal feelings and ethics tend to surface , causing dilemas and forcing tough decisions on characters in times of crisis. ( It seems to be a theme , throughout .. the human heart in struggle with itself , etc. ) ...Will we see one or more FM question, or go against their code ( bend the rules , somehow ) for what they feel is right ? For love ? For their personal honour ? ( I mean other than Arya , because we know she has the added complication of her bond with Nymeria and her Starkness pulling at her.)

It's too late where I am to say more, but I think it's very likely we'll learn more about these characters in future alive or dead. ( I have more questions about both of them )

Syrio's death at the hands of Trant has not been proven to my satisfaction and I feel there's something , some nugget of information GRRM is holding back that will answer some of the questions...We may or may not "see" the character on the page..It may not make a huge difference to the direction of the overall narrative ...It may come in no more than a passing remark that Arya overhears , but I feel it's coming.

ETA: If you come across a fallen tree in the forest, when did it fall ? Was it pulled over , blown over ..was it already dead when it fell ? Hang around long enough in the forest and you might meet a forester who knows something about it... or an arbourist who can read the signs.

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I usually don't believe he's alive, but the Syrio Lives theory is strangely taking on more life as time goes on, in light of all we've seen happen SINCE book one. More and more examples of skilled people surviving crazy shit. Oddly, I think "Syrio Lives" is more credible now than it was immediately after book 1. Because the door wasn't completely closed on him being alive, and we're learning from Martin that we need to verify these deaths before we accept them as fact. So that's why Syrio's current state of health is slightly of interest to me again. For example....this Trant guy..... has he been acting differently lately in any way? Is it possible they both died in that fight? (Trant slain and Syrio "died" as a character because it was time for him to wear another man's face and go on as Trant?) Anyone's spine tingling? No? Okay, I'll stop.

...No. I won't. This is writing itself now. What I'm saying is that in hindsight it does start to become glaring that such a deeply skilled warrior as Syrio didn't have a definitive, proven death. Martin did it that way for effect, I know, so we could feel Arya's distress and loss of control as chaos took her world away from her. Like her, we had to flee the scene. So not seeing Syrio's last breath was the price we had to pay for that scene to play out properly and make us teary-eyed, because his character would have ushered Arya to safety, just so. It was right for the character. But bad for us, as we've had to endure the lack of finality ever since. The question now becomes, "Could Martin have been using that apparently explained lack of finality to hide something else from us all this time?" Ned's death led us to believe the valiant have to die as a matter of course when they take a stand. So when we see Syrio being valiant we assume the same befell him. But Braavos teaches us a different lesson. That the valiant can hope for both: to make their stand AND LIVE. By outfoxing the enemy. I don't believe Syrio was overconfident; I believe he was properly confident. Which implies....... something. Perhaps. The door isn't wide open, but there's an asscrack of possibility here.

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We don't know how "bugged" he was by this question. He might have been chuckling inwardly as he gave yet another slippery answer. ( I say that with admiration ) No-one is immortal..All men must die..sometime.

So when GRRM says "He's not immortal." it's a classic GRRM non-answer. Not a yes or a no.

I can't really see Syrio as Trant , though ..if only because Trant carries on beating Sansa on command , etc. I would think any self-respecting FM would ditch that disguise ASAP..yet Trant's still with us.

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If a tree falls in the middle of the woods but there's no one around to hear it, did it really fall? This is basically the argument we've come to.

The tree fell, and Syrio died.

I agree. I liked that he sacrificed himself to save Arya.
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Does anyone question why the kindly man told arya that he does not know JH? Upon her arrival at HoBaW she tells the kindly man JH sent her, he said " I dont know that name"

since he change face every 3sec it would be pointless to NOT change name too...

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Jaqen, Rorge and Biter were signed over by Ned to Yoren before the Stark household was taken hostage and/or killed. During the Stark household purge, everyone including the Septa was killed. The only ones to make it were Sansa and Arya (who escaped) and Jeyne Poole, who was with Sansa and we know what happened to her. If they killed even the Septa, there is no reason at all they would allow the dancing master live especially when Syrio took up arms against various guard units loyal to the crown and/or Lannisters.

I admit, I find it incredibly annoying that these "Is Syrio Alive" threads pop up every week. But I still find it preferable to GRRM spoon feeding answers to the fandom. New readers are constantly coming to the series. Until he's finished with the series, I think it's a fun game he plays by keeping his answers the same for everyone whether they've been reading since 1996 or 2013. It's a lot more satisfying to draw our own conclusions rather than having things explicitly verified by the author.

Martin rarely outright confirms or denies things that aren't explicitly stated in the books. As far as I recall, the few things that have been explicitly confirmed by him are Brienne's last word (sword, which was blindingly obvious since she showed up later) and that Targaryens are not fireproof (which was also obvious since Viserys died from molten gold being poured over his head). Other things are given vague responses if they haven't already been outright stated or proven in the books.

I think, given the evidence, the conclusion to be drawn is that Syrio was a fun character who got himself dead.

Viserys dying from molten gold is not proof of the Targaryens not being fireproof; molten gold is metal, not fire. Hot metal, but metal nonetheless

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I always figured Syrio was Jaqen...can a man or a woman disprove this?

Yes. There's no way Jaqen was at two places at the same time, but Jaqen was already in the black cells when Syrio taught Arya waterdancing. It's in a Jaime chapter in AFFC; The chief undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters tells Jaime that Yoren got the permision to take the three men from the cells by Ned - but if that permission was given by Ned, that means Jaqen already was down there before Cerseis coup.

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Viserys dying from molten gold is not proof of the Targaryens not being fireproof; molten gold is metal, not fire. Hot metal, but metal nonetheless

Dany was burned by Drogon's fire though when mounting him in the fighting pit. Aegon V and his son Duncan the Small died in the inferno at Summerhall. Aerion Brightflame died from spontaneous combustion after drinking wildfire. Rhaenyra Targaryen was eaten (and hence burned) by her brother's dragon. The Valyrians didn't survive the volcanic doom. There's no reason to assume the Targs are fireproof.

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Yes. There's no way Jaqen was at two places at the same time, but Jaqen was already in the black cells when Syrio taught Arya waterdancing. It's in a Jaime chapter in AFFC; The chief undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters tells Jaime that Yoren got the permision to take the three men from the cells by Ned - but if that permission was given by Ned, that means Jaqen already was down there before Cerseis coup.

so he is dead. that sucks.

aOh, I'm not saying all Targaryens are fireproof; I think that is just Dany, at least for the time being...I'm arguing that, were being fireproof something that was real, molten metal would still kill you. It is not fire, its metal. agreed w/ ur points tho

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Dany was burned by Drogon's fire though when mounting him in the fighting pit. Aegon V and his son Duncan the Small died in the inferno at Summerhall. Aerion Brightflame died from spontaneous combustion after drinking wildfire. Rhaenyra Targaryen was eaten (and hence burned) by her brother's dragon. The Valyrians didn't survive the volcanic doom. There's no reason to assume the Targs are fireproof.

...actually, on second reading, and purely for the sake of friendly debate;

1.) I don't remember Dany beig burned, but I am a burnout, so ....

2.)When a building is on fire, Aegon V and Duncan couldhave been killed by collpasing building materials, rather than fire

3.)Wildfire is not traditional fire

4.) nor is dragonfire

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...actually, on second reading, and purely for the sake of friendly debate;

1.) I don't remember Dany beig burned, but I am a burnout, so ....

2.)When a building is on fire, Aegon V and Duncan couldhave been killed by collpasing building materials, rather than fire

3.)Wildfire is not traditional fire

4.) nor is dragonfire

I believe GRRM has confirmed the Targaryens are NOT immune to fire. Daenerys surviving Drogo's funeral pyre was a one time magic type occurrence.
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