Is Syrio Forel really dead?

[anon76returns]

I don't necessarily believe Syrio is alive, but I don't think there's any reason to think he definitely died.

1) He was in an extremely bad situation when it was him vs. 5 Lannister guards and Trant, but by the time Arya left it was just Trant, so I'd say he already considerably improved his odds.

2) Trant is the second worst Kingsguard at the time. And saying that Trant is a better KG than Blunt is like saying Renly was a better tourney knight than Ser Dantos.

3) Syrio had his pick of 5 fine Lannister longswords to replace his broken wooden sword (I'm assuming a Bravosi sword instructor living in Westeros is at least passingly familiar with the native steel).

4) Bronn had a similar armor 'disadvantage' when he wiped the floor with Vardis Egen at the Eyrie. If Syrio can avoid 5 Lannister guardsmens' simultaneous attack, how much easier to avoid the attacks of a single knight in full plate?

5) Since Trant was in full plate, it might have been easier to knock him unconscious with blunt force to the helmet rather than to pierce the plate. If Trant was unconscious I think Syrio would have been released from his vow that "the first sword of Bravos does not run", and could have proceeded to make his exit after straightening out his tie James Bond style.

Or he could be dead, I just don't think its been settled either way. I will note that in the corresponding episode that the sound that Arya hears after fleeing is clearly that of a metal sword falling to the floor, for whatever that is worth.

[Castellan]

dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead it was tragic

[Greatwing]

5) Since Trant was in full plate, it might have been easier to knock him unconscious with blunt force to the helmet rather than to pierce the plate. If Trant was unconscious I think Syrio would have been released from his vow that "the first sword of Bravos does not run", and could have proceeded to make his exit after straightening out his tie James Bond style.

I think this is a great point, should we find that Syrio lives then it covers pretty much everything. Not only why Syrio got away but why no one knows, I can't see and absolute ass like Trant admitting he lost one of the Stark household, especially to the Lannisters. I may also explain the sadistic beatings that Sansa gets, Trant may have been a crappy guy that didn't beat people until he was defeated by a small "dance instructor" and so loses face (another reason why he wouldn't tell anyone) and takes it out on the only person he can that's linked, since Sansa is the only Stark around and Syrio was a Stark man at the time he terrorizes her whenever he can.

[Lord Reaver]

1) He was in an extremely bad situation when it was him vs. 5 Lannister guards and Trant, but by the time Arya left it was just Trant, so I'd say he already considerably improved his odds.

It was him vs. 5 lannister guards actually. Trant was happy to hang back and watch until his guards got smacked around. Only then did he even unsheathe his sword. So no, odds not improved at all.

2) Trant is the second worst Kingsguard at the time. And saying that Trant is a better KG than Blunt is like saying Renly was a better tourney knight than Ser Dantos.

"Worst" doesn't necessarily mean not a good swordsman, however. Being a KG is about more than just swinging a sword, as exemplified by Barristan. Trant is cruel and sly by Jaime's assessment, but that's not saying much about his ability with a sword. That said, one does not become a KG without knowing a thing or two about fighting, and Trant hasn't deteriorated like Blount has. From all we've seen, Trant seems like a well above average fighter, for all his other flaws. And that's the only relevant thing here.

3) Syrio had his pick of 5 fine Lannister longswords to replace his broken wooden sword (I'm assuming a Bravosi sword instructor living in Westeros is at least passingly familiar with the native steel).

Bending over to pick up something from the floor = death in a swordfight. Need I explain how easily Trant could kill him if he tried to do that ?

4) Bronn had a similar armor 'disadvantage' when he wiped the floor with Vardis Egen at the Eyrie. If Syrio can avoid 5 Lannister guardsmens' simultaneous attack, how much easier to avoid the attacks of a single knight in full plate?

Bronn did not "wipe the floor" with anyone. Ser Vardis lost because his sword broke AND he had a statue fall on him. AKA plot reasons.

5) Since Trant was in full plate, it might have been easier to knock him unconscious with blunt force to the helmet rather than to pierce the plate. If Trant was unconscious I think Syrio would have been released from his vow that "the first sword of Bravos does not run", and could have proceeded to make his exit after straightening out his tie James Bond style.

Easier perhaps, but not easy, by any stretch of the imagination. Under the helmet there would be padding, protecting Trant from just such a fate. As such, I have difficulty seeing just how Syrio would go about doing this. Of course, with the powers attributed to him by the sort of people who desperately want him to be alive, he seems able to do just about anything but walk on water.

Or he could be dead, I just don't think its been settled either way. I will note that in the corresponding episode that the sound that Arya hears after fleeing is clearly that of a metal sword falling to the floor, for whatever that is worth.

What ? The only sound Arya hears after fleeing is shouting, by a butcher's boy. No swords falling, metal or otherwise.

[anon76returns]

It was him vs. 5 lannister guards actually. Trant was happy to hang back and watch until his guards got smacked around. Only then did he even unsheathe his sword. So no, odds not improved at all.

In what world is 5 vs 1 not worse odds than 1 vs 1?

"Worst" doesn't necessarily mean not a good swordsman, however. Being a KG is about more than just swinging a sword, as exemplified by Barristan. Trant is cruel and sly by Jaime's assessment, but that's not saying much about his ability with a sword. That said, one does not become a KG without knowing a thing or two about fighting, and Trant hasn't deteriorated like Blount has. From all we've seen, Trant seems like a well above average fighter, for all his other flaws. And that's the only relevant thing here.

Where does Trant ever do anything well above average? Certainly we have assessments from Jaimie and Barristan where Trant gets absolutely zero respect. They also both lament that the Kingsguard has fallen far from the legendary status it attained with Hightower, Dayne, and co. From all appearances Blount and Trant were Cersei's men, appointed because of their fealty to her rather than their skill with a blade.

Bending over to pick up something from the floor = death in a swordfight. Need I explain how easily Trant could kill him if he tried to do that ?

You must have neglected to read the immediately preceding passage where it appears that Syrio is capable of dodging the wind if he so chooses. He mixes dodging and acrobatic maneuvers, I'm sure it wouldn't have been too hard to quickly grab a sword from the floor while dodging.

Bronn did not "wipe the floor" with anyone. Ser Vardis lost because his sword broke AND he had a statue fall on him. AKA plot reasons.

My goodness. Bronn did indeed wipe the floor with Vardis- he bloodies him several times, while Vardis never came close to laying his blade on Bronn. Bronn had a very deliberate strategy of tiring Vardis out, and it worked perfectly. To suggest that Bronn won through luck and the intervention of a falling statue is to completely mis-read that chapter.

Easier perhaps, but not easy, by any stretch of the imagination. Under the helmet there would be padding, protecting Trant from just such a fate. As such, I have difficulty seeing just how Syrio would go about doing this. Of course, with the powers attributed to him by the sort of people who desperately want him to be alive, he seems able to do just about anything but walk on water.

I've been knocked unconscious while wearing a football helmet, and those things are designed specifically for such blunt trauma. Syrio completely shatters another man's kneecap with a slight flick of the wrist, so I think it's within the realm of possibility that he could knock out Trant.

What ? The only sound Arya hears after fleeing is shouting, by a butcher's boy. No swords falling, metal or otherwise.

I should have been more explicit that I was referring to the HBO episode. It was penned by Martin, but I doubt he was giving stage direction for what sounds should be heard. So, as I say, take it for what it's worth.

[Lord Reaver]

In what world is 5 vs 1 not worse odds than 1 vs 1?

That depends entirely on the skill of the 5 vs. the 1, doesn't it ? I believe that was already demonstrated by Syrio.

Certainly we have assessments from Jaimie and Barristan where Trant gets absolutely zero respect. They also both lament that the Kingsguard has fallen far from the legendary status it attained with Hightower, Dayne, and co.

Actually, Jaime describes Blount and Trant's fighting abilities as 'adequate'. Not bad coming from the likes of him. They are terrible Kingsguard because they have none of the values such a position embodies, not because they can't fight.

From all appearances Blount and Trant were Cersei's men, appointed because of their fealty to her rather than their skill with a blade.

No, that's the Kettleblacks. Trant and Blount were appointed by King Robert, and as House Trant is from the Stormlands, it makes no sense at all that Trant was Cersei's man when he was chosen for the duty.

You must have neglected to read the immediately preceding passage where it appears that Syrio is capable of dodging the wind if he so chooses. He mixes dodging and acrobatic maneuvers, I'm sure it wouldn't have been too hard to quickly grab a sword from the floor while dodging.

No, I read just fine, thank you very much. I do have to ask you this though; If it's so laughably easy for Syrio to pick up a sword, why does he not do this right away, instead of whacking at Trant with his wooden sword ? Is he merely toying with him, due to his superior ninja skills ? If that's the case, why does he tell Arya to run, when he obviously has the fight well in hand, and can simply pick up a sword, off Trant like nothing and walk out of there ?

The answer is of course that it isn't, he can't and he realizes he will die.

My goodness. Bronn did indeed wipe the floor with Vardis- he bloodies him several times, while Vardis never came close to laying his blade on Bronn.

Bronn bloodied Ser Vardis exactly once before killing him, to his right elbow. As for 'never came close', that isn't quite how I read it. You might want to read the passage that starts with 'Almost almost' (those opening words seem to give the lie to your assessment in themselves).

Bronn had a very deliberate strategy of tiring Vardis out, and it worked perfectly. To suggest that Bronn won through luck and the intervention of a falling statue is to completely mis-read that chapter.

I never said Bronn didn't have a strategy, nor that it didn't work, I merely refuted your presentation of the fight which was overly one-sided. In the end, Egen comes within a hairsbreath of cutting him open from head to toe, but Bronn barely leaps away, the sword breaks and the statue falls on Egen effectively ending the fight in Bronns favor. I don't see how that is mis-reading the chapter at all.

I've been knocked unconscious while wearing a football helmet, and those things are designed specifically for such blunt trauma.

And were you knocked unconscious by other people wearing similar equipment, or by a person completely without any ? Anyway, I have worn both a football helmet and a chapel de fer with accompanying padding, and I know which one I would prefer to rely on against trauma, blunt or otherwise.

Syrio completely shatters another man's kneecap with a slight flick of the wrist, so I think it's within the realm of possibility that he could knock out Trant.

A kneecap the author deliberately went to great lengths to explain was NOT armored (the description of the guardsmen's armor is about the most detailed we ever have by GRRM). Also, I do not see 'a slight flick of the wrist' in that passage.

I should have been more explicit that I was referring to the HBO episode. It was penned by Martin, but I doubt he was giving stage direction for what sounds should be heard. So, as I say, take it for what it's worth.

Not much then. I go by the books myself.

[Corvo Attano]

All the evidence points to him being dead. Unless he is Jaqen

[The guy from the Vale]

All the evidence points to him being dead. Unless he is Jaqen

Syrio can't be Jaqen, unless he's able to be at two places at once. I've argued that twice in this very thread already.

[Corvo Attano]

Syrio can't be Jaqen, unless he's able to be at two places at once. I've argued that twice in this very thread already.

I dont think he is Jaqen either, but its the only possibility that he could be alive

[jon crow]

duhhhh, Syrio survived, being a FM he switched place with Ned to be executed while Ned was sent at Bravoos, hiding since 2 years, it is known. :P

he's also a secret targaryen/blackfyre.

[Whitering]

I believe GRRM has confirmed the Targaryens are NOT immune to fire. Daenerys surviving Drogo's funeral pyre was a one time magic type occurrence.

Actually, in her last chapter in ADWD she recounts how Drogon's fire burned her hair but not the rest of her. By way of linking it to the first event, Drogo's pyre, she thinks

"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall...."

Other characters in discussing whether she was alive or not recount how Drogon's flame touched her, Barristan thinks his doubts because he saw her riding Drogon, but it was chaos.

[Woftis]

Actually, in her last chapter in ADWD she recounts how Drogon's fire burned her hair but not the rest of her. By way of linking it to the first event, Drogo's pyre, she thinks

"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall...."

Other characters in discussing whether she was alive or not recount how Drogon's flame touched her, Barristan thinks his doubts because he saw her riding Drogon, but it was chaos.

In general though, Targs are not fire-proof.

[Greatwing]

In general though, Targs are not fire-proof.

Maybe they're not now but were they ever? If they were then it lends a whole lot more to the whole of the blood of the dragon.

[Woftis]

Maybe they're not now but were they ever? If they were then it lends a whole lot more to the whole of the blood of the dragon.

GRRM: "The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived"

I'd assume they've never been, but hey, you never know.

[Whitering]

In general though, Targs are not fire-proof.

Oh well, yes, she's definitely not, she later burns her hand on meat Drogon had baked. I just like to throw wrenches at people who bring out that George quote that said it was a one time thing, when it's plainly stated in the text that it's not. Is she immune to dragon fire? I really don't know, but she's like 2/2 on the mystic fire immunity. There was certainly nothing mystical about her flight from the fighting arena, I mean, outside from the dragon flying around.

Bottom line, Syrio is probably dead, there is a small chance he is Jaqen (very small). Those are really the only two options, or he was in the cells for a couple years but was sacrificed to make Ungregor.

[Woftis]

<snip>

Bottom line, Syrio is probably dead, there is a small chance he is Jaqen (very small). Those are really the only two options, or he was in the cells for a couple years but was sacrificed to make Ungregor.

I agree :)

[Shitmouth the Wise]

I think he's still alive. "Off-camera" deaths rarely hold up in ASOIAF. It was off camera in the books and then in the show, which seems deliberate to me. Just makes too much sense that Arya should encounter him again now that she's in Braavos.

[Errant Bard]

I think he's still alive. "Off-camera" deaths rarely hold up in ASOIAF.

"Rarely"? Hmm, there is Davos, and then... who?

[Ice Turtle]

"Rarely"? Hmm, there is Davos, and then... who?

There are a lot of character we know are alive but characters in the books think dead. But even without that there are some other people: Brienne, Ramsay (book2), Jon Conningon, maybe Ashara, most probably Sandor and Stannis, Mance in a way and tons of unnecessary cliffhangers for Tyrion, Davos, Arya, Dany...

[anon76returns]

That depends entirely on the skill of the 5 vs. the 1, doesn't it ? I believe that was already demonstrated by Syrio.

We don't know the end result with Syrio, so it would be circular logic to argue that he proved it one way or the other.

Actually, Jaime describes Blount and Trant's fighting abilities as 'adequate'. Not bad coming from the likes of him. They are terrible Kingsguard because they have none of the values such a position embodies, not because they can't fight.

Barristan, Dayne, Jaimie, and possibly Hightower constituted the cream of Aerys' Kingsguard, and they were revered as much for martial prowess as for honor (Jaimie mores, obviously). Trant might have been adequate, but he clearly was not as good as those previous 3, or Loras or Garlan Tyrell for instance. There's no doubt in my mind that Syrio was a superior swordsman to Trant, though I'm not sure he would have been better than any of the 5 mentioned above. That's my point, and nothing you've said thus far has refuted it.

No, that's the Kettleblacks. Trant and Blount were appointed by King Robert, and as House Trant is from the Stormlands, it makes no sense at all that Trant was Cersei's man when he was chosen for the duty.

He's clearly Cersei's man at the time in question, as attested to by Tyrion when he arrives in King's Landing. How he got there we don't know, but I'm on as equally firm footing speculating on a Cersei whisper in Robert's ear as you are with a purely Robert origin. Did any Kingsguard die during the Greyjoy rebellion (at which point Cersei would have had a more influential role than in replacing Dayne, Whent, Hightower, Martell, and Darry after Robert's Rebellion)? We don't know, but certainly both Jaimie and Barristan think that they can take on the whole lot of them at once, indicating that their skill in arms is less than legendary (and consequently raising the possibility that their appointments were more political than martial, as indeed Jaimie's was to begin with).

No, I read just fine, thank you very much. I do have to ask you this though; If it's so laughably easy for Syrio to pick up a sword, why does he not do this right away, instead of whacking at Trant with his wooden sword ? Is he merely toying with him, due to his superior ninja skills ? If that's the case, why does he tell Arya to run, when he obviously has the fight well in hand, and can simply pick up a sword, off Trant like nothing and walk out of there ?

I'm not the one that gave Syrio the ability to incapacitate four armed guards (who have advantages in numbers, equipment, and formation) simultaneously. I'm just saying that the skills that Syrio displays in evading their simultaneous attacks are sufficient to allow him to re-arm in the face of Trant's attack. Do you deny this?

The answer is of course that it isn't, he can't and he realizes he will die.

I'll point out that Syrio also told Arya to run before the Lannisters attacked, and we all know how that turned out. If Arya runs, she definitely escapes, while if she waits there's always the chance that Syrio loses, even if the chance was as low as Syrio slipping on a banana peel.

Bronn bloodied Ser Vardis exactly once before killing him, to his right elbow. As for 'never came close', that isn't quite how I read it. You might want to read the passage that starts with 'Almost almost' (those opening words seem to give the lie to your assessment in themselves).

'Almost' only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, Vardis and Bronn were engaged in neither. The fight played out exactly as Bronn intended- he dictated the pace & style of the fight, was the only one to land a blow with his blade (nine of them, to zero for Vardis), and eventually won the fight. Vardis fought bravely and with honor, but he never really had much of a chance. If this had been a soccer game, it would have ended 1-0 with Vardis never having a shot on goal. That IS pretty one-sided, but if you like I'll retract the 'wiped the floor' label (a mild jest, in any case), and simply say that Bronn won without needing armor against a man in full plate. Now, why do you think Syrio would have been unable to duplicate the feat? Was Bronn better than Syrio? Was Trant better than Vardis? Remember Tyrion uses Bronn's victory over Vardis to intimidate Ser Mandon Moore, by all accounts a more dangerous fighter than Trant. Is there some other logical reason for denying that Syrio could duplicate the feat, or are you just quibbling to try and obscure the precedent?

And were you knocked unconscious by other people wearing similar equipment, or by a person completely without any ? Anyway, I have worn both a football helmet and a chapel de fer with accompanying padding, and I know which one I would prefer to rely on against trauma, blunt or otherwise.

I'm beginning to think that the entire board is composed of SCA members or else employed by Medieval Times. I was knocked unconscious by a similar equipped opponent, one without a lever arm/force multiplier such as a sword. No doubt a metal helm offers more protection against a blade, but the padding in a state-of-the-art modern football helmet offers more protection against concussion than padded leather. Nevertheless I was knocked unconscious, and the same thing could have happened to Trant.

A kneecap the author deliberately went to great lengths to explain was NOT armored (the description of the guardsmen's armor is about the most detailed we ever have by GRRM). Also, I do not see 'a slight flick of the wrist' in that passage.

I'm not arguing that Trant's skull would have shattered, I'm arguing that the concussive force from such a blow could have knocked him out, the same way that state of the art armor in our Humvees in Iraq couldn't prevent our troops from suffering brain damage.

As I said before, Syrio could have died. I'm under no illusion that we'll see him again in the novels. I am saying that anyone who thinks that 'draw your own conclusions' (and this includes the Martin, if that's what he thinks) only has one possible outcome is not paying enough attention to the outcomes of Bronn vs. Egon and Syrio vs. the Lannister 5.