Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

In their hunger to destroy the Starks, the Lannister's may well have destroyed themselves.

[PureGold]

He may hate the rest of Tyrion's family, but he has a grudging respect for the Imp himself. (of course Tyrion killing his own father might help.)

Where does Jon think this. The last time I recall Jon thinking about Tyrion was in AGOT. I don't recall him ever thinking anything kind about Tyrion after everything with the Lannister/Stark feud exploded. I'm still in the process of a re-read so maybe I haven't gotten there yet but I don't recall anything that gave the impression Jon had a grudging respect or respect period for Tyrion.

What, in the name of the Father, are you talking about? The entire North is ready to rise for him. He already has Manderly, Manderly's network, Stannis and likely Skagos.

Why would he have Skagos? I got the impression he was there to lay low. I'll give you Manderly but Stannis has his own interest and those can shift frequently.

I don't see any reason why House Stark shouldn't be able to be powerful again, with Sansa and Bran in pretty good positions to make a devastating comeback.

Is Bran trapped as an observer, I'm just not clear on how much influence he'll be able to have. Can he just whisper to people that pray to a heart tree?

And Sansa is living under a false identity trying her best to avoid the "Kings Justice" I love Sansa but I don't think her position is so great right now. Especially since a sell sword last seen looking for Sansa Stark to take back to Kings Landing has just arrive at the Vale.

do you mean acknowledged by the reader or by westeros?

I mean't by readers. I think I'm one of the few that thinks House Stark won't make a huge comeback. Some will survive but I can't see it being a "Great House" again. Granted The Lannisters have gotten some severe blows themselves but none of them delivered by the hands of House Stark, that's why I think in terms of Stark v. Lannister, House Stark got beat.

[jons nissa]

Fixed for you. That was before the war started. Tyrion forcibly marrying Sansa wasn't received very well on top of all the earlier reasons.

actually there's nothing in the books that supports your statement that jon's feelings for tyrion have changed, however logical that might seem. he is even given an opportunity to denounce their friendship when he and stannis discuss who should rule winterfell but does NOT say anything about tyrion and insists it belongs to sansa despite her being lady lannister.

i'm sure the next books will revisit this friendship and tell us what state it's in, be it dead or strained or something else.

OK, the "war" was engineered by Littlefinger to punish the Starks (and Tullys) for stepping on his dreams. As things have shaken out, as Apple points out, the Lannisters are as nearly on the ropes as the Starks.

Starks/Lannisters is old news.

while littlefinger can claim responsibility either directly or indirectly for a great deal of the current conflict in westeros, i do not believe any of these acts were based on his wish to punish anyone. it does have a lot to do with his dreams and ambitions, though. and while i agree that the house rivalry will take a back seat, i do not believe it's gone.

[Bride of Winter]

I wouldn't give the Lannisters full credit. They played a part, yes, but a HUGE part of it was timing and bad luck on the part of the Starks. Had Theon not taken Winterfell, the Starks would still have the Freys, perhaps the Boltons (I'm sure Roose just wanted to be part of the winning side, and he said himself it was Robb losing Winterfell that made him turn sides), and would still have Jaime to hold over the Lannisters' heads. Though I do sort of think Robb was doomed from the start - I have a feeling that even if Robb married Roslin and they hadn't lost the North, those who betrayed him would have found some other reason to do so the second the North campain was on shaky ground - that's where timing plays in. Compared to the Starks', the Lannisters' downfall has been (and continues to be) much quicker and more violent. As Tywin was a huge player in the Red Wedding, and the Lannisters were on almost as equally shaky ground as the Starks towards the end of Robb and Cat's arc, if Joffrey's wedding had happened the slightest bit earlier it's definitely plausible that the Lannisters would be in the Starks' place right now instead.

[Tagganaro]

yeah, I mean what do you mean by "destroyed"? Jon is/was commander of the NW, Sansa is learning to play the game of thrones and might possibly have an army behind her at some point, Bran is becoming a super-powered tree who can warg any animal and know everything basically, Arya is becoming a super assassin, and Rickon might possibly be Lord of the Flies on Skagos with an army behind him.

Doesn't really constitute destroyed at all. And then when you look at the Lannisters- that's closer to being destroyed. No leadership, no remaining army, no loyalty among existing houses/former banner men that we know of. When you factor in Maggi the Frog's prophecy about Tommen and Myrcella dying, that leaves the Lannisters with crazy Cersei, Jaime preferring to help out the Starks over the Lannisters (and possibly about to be killed by Cat anyway), and Tyrion (enough said).

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

1) House Stark isn't destroyed.

2) Keeping their house whole and well was a low priority to both Ned and Robb, thus their current struggles are imo mostly self-inflicted.

Also the Lannisters never had the intention to destroy the Starks.

[Pope Killdragon]

Stannis and Manderly have agreed to work together for the purpose of installing Rickon as Lord Stark at the very least. Plus the Hill Lords or Mountain lords or whatever they're called will no doubt be the first to rise for Lord Stark and the rest'll follow. That's no "modest" alliance.This is all without mentioning Sansa and Littlefinger.

[PrimeRhaegar]

yes in the world of westeros they are same as how everyone knows its them that killed the targs too

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Obviously the OP has yet to stumble upon the Great Northern Conspiracy.

[Artos Stark]

In short, no it is not acknowledged. House Stark is still very much alive and really kicked the Lannister's ass in the actual war. The Lannisters won in the politics and murder department though. But as pointed out before, the Lannisters have no at all came out as victors, their House is in bad shape right now and have really used all of their resources. The Starks will rise in the North very soon, just wait.

[BericDondarrion]

OK, the "war" was engineered by Littlefinger to punish the Starks (and Tullys) for stepping on his dreams. As things have shaken out, as Apple points out, the Lannisters are as nearly on the ropes as the Starks.

This is pretty much water under the bridge, as we have a threatened Targaryen restoration going on in the South and Winter, with its accompanying wights and white walkers threatening the North. And in the far distance Dany, her 40 thousand (count 'em) Dothraki screamers, and her Amazing Dragons. If they ever get their act together and take it on the road.

Starks/Lannisters is old news.

Why do we assume that those "screamers" will follow Daenerys? Did she not vow to kill their khal ? It's more likely she rides drogon and attacks that khalasar.

[Pope Killdragon]

The Dothrakhi aren't a threat in a world of castles and armor.

[Penguin king]

This is where I had to stop reading. Also, if the position that House Lannister is in now constitutes "winning," maybe winning isn't the best thing. Joffrey's dead, Tommen's a puppet, Myrcella's mutilated, Cersei's in disgrace, Tyrion's in exile, Jaime's missing, Tywin and Kevan are dead, the troops are bled, etc. WINNING!

It's not like the Starks or their allies had a hand in any of that. About the closest they came was Sansa's unknowing involvement in Joffrey's assassination.

Like It or not, the Lannisters did win their war against The North. Since then though they've mannaged to screw things up considerably.

[Dicer]

I sort of agree with the OP. The Lannisters have inflicted a great deal of pain and suffering on the Starks. Bran is crippled, Robb and Cat brutally murdered and Ned beheaded as a traitor. Sansa had to undergo mental and physical torture under Joffrey and Cersei and forced to marry Tyrion. Arya has lost her childhood.

Now, realistically the good guys don't always win and getting revenge is not always good for the soul. But still I want at least one of the Starks to take down one of the important Lannisters. I don't care which one. I hate that the Lannisters are taking each other down. While it's nice that there is some karma and the Lannisters are getting slowly destroyed, I want the Starks to have a hand in that destruction.

So if UnCat takes care of Jaime I would be happy. But I don't think that's happening. Second choice would be Arya or Bran. I think Arya's in a better position. So if Arya takes out either Cersei or Jaime I would fist pump and run around my room screaming! It would be the best thing ever.

Where does Jon think this. The last time I recall Jon thinking about Tyrion was in AGOT. I don't recall him ever thinking anything kind about Tyrion after everything with the Lannister/Stark feud exploded. I'm still in the process of a re-read so maybe I haven't gotten there yet but I don't recall anything that gave the impression Jon had a grudging respect or respect period for Tyrion.

Jon does think of Tyrion in ADwD:

If the tales coming up the kingsroad could be believed, the King’s Hand had been murdered by his dwarf son whilst sitting on a privy. Jon had known Tyrion Lannister, briefly. He took my hand and named me friend. It was hard to believe the little man had it in him to murder his own sire, but the fact of Lord Tywin’s demise seemed to be beyond doubt.

[lojzelote]

House Stark will rise again and they are the only house in the entire series, the survival of which is granted. No fears. OTOH, the Lannisters, Tywin's line at least, will die out.

As for the Tyrion - Jon relationship discussed above, I have always found it a bit odd, but Jon does not seem to blame Tyrion for the RW or the marriage to Sansa. He appears to be more bothered by the fact that Tyrion kinslaid Tywin.

If the tales coming up the kingsroad could be believed, the King’s Hand had been murdered by his dwarf son whilst sitting on a privy. Jon had known Tyrion Lannister, briefly. He took my hand and named me friend. It was hard to believe the little man had it in him to murder his own sire, but the fact of Lord Tywin’s demise seemed to be beyond doubt.

Not a word of Sansa anywhere, although he knows well that Sansa is now "Lady Lannister".

ETA: Ninja'd

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's not like the Starks or their allies had a hand in any of that. About the closest they came was Sansa's unknowing involvement in Joffrey's assassination.

Like It or not, the Lannisters did win their war against The North. Since then though they've mannaged to screw things up considerably.

Except wiping out three quarter of the Lannister armed forces.

[The Wolves]

It's not like the Starks or their allies had a hand in any of that. About the closest they came was Sansa's unknowing involvement in Joffrey's assassination.

Like It or not, the Lannisters did win their war against The North. Since then though they've mannaged to screw things up considerably.

They never beat the Starks on the battlefield, yep Robb Stark still remained undefeated on the battlefield and the Lannisters seem really reluctant to be associated with deceit that was done regarding House Stark at the RW

[Frey Pie]

How can a house be destroyed when there are still several members? The Lannisters are in almost as bad a state now. In any case the Boltons did far more damage to the Starks then the Lannisters. Roose killed far more men, and Robb, while his son sacked WF and "murdered" two more heirs. So no its not acknowledged

[jons nissa]

As for the Tyrion - Jon relationship discussed above, I have always found it a bit odd, but Jon does not seem to blame Tyrion for the RW or the marriage to Sansa. He appears to be more bothered by the fact that Tyrion kinslaid Tywin.

Not a word of Sansa anywhere, although he knows well that Sansa is now "Lady Lannister".

it is curious. makes me wonder if grrm is hinting at future jon/tyrion interactions.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

House Lannister is Tywin - the rest are simply Lannisters. Tywin himself was attacked by the Starks first when they abducted his son and secondly when they attacked Jaime - before that point Tywin has done nothing against the Starks. What Jaime and Cersei did they did as free agents or a queen, not as Lannisters.