Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?

[Winterz]

So that's not out of pure loyalty, they just do it because they know they might receive something at the end. How many Stark-following Houses actually cared about profit?

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I must be crazy, I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that people follow House Lannister out of actual loyalty and not in fear of bing annihilated. Funny, right?

Yes Lannisters have been kings/lords of the West for 6000 years - the very idea that their lords are not loyal to them is ridiculous.

[Penguin king]

So that's not out of pure loyalty, they just do it because they know they might receive something at the end. How many Stark-following Houses actually cared about profit?

Oh, so a Stark never pays his debts? Stark bannermen are never rewarded for their service? They're expected to serve with out any sort of benifits in return? You can see from all the squabbling over the Hornwood lands that expanding their wealth and power is as important to the Northmen as it would be to any other lords.

[PureGold]

That's what a lot of people expect. But it seems the Lannisters are falling without the Starks being the ones to deliver their comeuppance.

I feel the series will end with a Stark in Winterfell but I feel there is a good chance there will be a Lannister in the Rock as well. That Lannister might be walking small (sorry!) and the House in poor standing but I don't think GRRM is going for the classic "good versus evil" premise with the "good" Starks returning to vanquish the "evil" Lannisters. That seems too simple and doesn't feel quite right for what this story has become.

This sums it up for me nicely. There may be a Stark in Winterfell, though not the menagerie there would have been had the Starks never gotten on the wrong side of House Lannister but I think the Lannisters (whomever is left) will have control of Casterly Rock be it Genna Lannister, Tyrion (who worked to ensure House Lannisters victory over House Stark throughout ALL of COK) or whomever.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

This sums it up for me nicely. There may be a Stark in Winterfell, though not the menagerie there would have been had the Starks never gotten on the wrong side of House Lannister but I think the Lannisters (whomever is left) will have control of Casterly Rock be it Genna Lannister, Tyrion (who worked to ensure House Lannisters victory over House Stark throughout ALL of COK) or whomever.

My vote is for Bran for lord of Winterfell and Tommen or Devan Lannister for Casterly Rock.

[Waylin Stark]

Well, House Lannister didn't completely destroy House Stark, but yeah, they did beat them up badly.

By the end, the Starks will return and House Lannister will be badly beaten up also.

[Sansa_Stark]

Proof?

I love how you ask for proof even though you are the one makinf baseless claims.

[Sansa_Stark]

Also people dont really even like the lannisters all that much. Cersei recalls at one point that even in the west Tywin was more respected than loved. Most likely a good deal of Lannister bannerman only follow the family out of fear rather than love. But yeah you must be trolling if you are saying people only follow the starks because they are afraid of the boltons while the westerland bannerman love the lannisters. Have you even been reading the same books

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course the Lannisters have loyal vassels. As the saying goes, "A Lannister always pays his debts". People who serve the Lannisters faithfully are well rewarded. House spicer, house Clegane etc. Tywin was happy to use the carrot as well as the stick.

That's loyalty out of getting a reward/payment for it. Not loyalty out of genuine affection, love, honor, etc.

My vote is for Bran for lord of Winterfell and Tommen or Devan Lannister for Casterly Rock.

Daven Lannister is going to be playing the role of Robb Stark is the Red Wedding 2. Book it.

[jon stark I]

Lannisters did Starks a favor actually.Now more then ever Stark family sees who is loyal and who isn't.I really think Starks will be back more powerfull then ever they will embrace the Old ways again as Ned said Stark kings of old were harsh man for harsh times Starks grew soft and this is a wake up call.Starks will come back for revenge and justice.

[Techelles]

The lions have had their time, it's true. But there will also be a time for wolves.

[Mladen]

That's loyalty out of getting a reward/payment for it. Not loyalty out of genuine affection, love, honor, etc.

Daven Lannister is going to be playing the role of Robb Stark is the Red Wedding 2. Book it.

Agreed completely. When Tywin died no one cried, no one felt sorrow. They were all pretending to mourn in fear. If House Lannister would ever face the circumstances Starks have, they would be left alone. They wouldn`t have loyal men like Manderlys and Glovers trying all they can to restore them. Basically, Tywin ruled with iron fist. And it melted when he died. Now, on the first sign of danger all their bannermen will try to protect themselves not CR or Tommen and Cersei. Especially now after Kevan`s death

And as for RW 2.0 I always considered that Martin made PW as paying the debt of RW. For me PW was RW 2.0 in some lighter not horrific way.

[jon stark I]

RW 2,0 isn't there a new wedding on Twins or was it riverrun?

[Penguin king]

That's loyalty out of getting a reward/payment for it. Not loyalty out of genuine affection, love, honor, etc.

It's the same thing. The Lords of the North aren't sheep. loyal without reason. They follow house Starks commands, and raise their banners when called, and in return house stark rewards them with lands, titles and privileges. That's how feudalism works.

Twyin might be a little harsher with the whip than Ned, but the principle is exactly the same. It's not like the Starks haven't disposed of vassels that revolt. House Greystark was wiped out, and Rickard Karstark lost his head for his treason.

When Robb calls the banners to war his lords think he'll be a push over. It's only when Grey wind starts biting off fingers that they start to respect him.

[Mladen]

It's the same thing. The Lords of the North aren't sheep. loyal without reason. They follow house Starks commands, and raise their banners when called, and in return house stark rewards them with lands, titles and privileges. That's how feudalism works.

Twyin might be a little harsher with the whip than Ned, but the principle is exactly the same. It's not like the Starks haven't disposed of vassels that revolt. House Greystark was wiped out, and Rickard Karstark lost his head for his treason.

When Robb calls the banners to war his lords think he'll be a push over. It's only when Grey wind starts biting off fingers that they start to respect him.

But the point isn`t in principle of feudalism. They all know how their Highlord is. This is about sentiment of loyalty. Of those people who help their overlords in time of need. How many hill tribes have joined Stannis in pursue to save Ned Stark`s daughter? Or should we discuss about Manderlys and Glovers? Perhaps even Umbers and Mormonts. Jeor Mormont respected Ned Stark even after he sentenced his son to death. Even Riverlords are loyal to Starks as their new Kings.

Tywin was ruthless man, who thought that sentiments of love and loyalty aren`t needed. He inspired only fear. And that`s why the Lannisters power will collapse. For on the first sign of trouble, they`ll be abandoned by everyone. Not like Starks, who still have half the North fighting for their return.

[Winterz]

It's the same thing. The Lords of the North aren't sheep. loyal without reason. They follow house Starks commands, and raise their banners when called, and in return house stark rewards them with lands, titles and privileges. That's how feudalism works.

Twyin might be a little harsher with the whip than Ned, but the principle is exactly the same. It's not like the Starks haven't disposed of vassels that revolt. House Greystark was wiped out, and Rickard Karstark lost his head for his treason.

Really, lands and privileges? Have you even read the books? At first it was a war to recover their Paramount Lord which meant going against the crown and the other 6 Kingdoms which would surely grant them more privileges than some boy. After Ned's death it became about Independece not expansion of their territory. If it was really about privileges why forsake their vow to the throne.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's the same thing. The Lords of the North aren't sheep. loyal without reason. They follow house Starks commands, and raise their banners when called, and in return house stark rewards them with lands, titles and privileges. That's how feudalism works.

Twyin might be a little harsher with the whip than Ned, but the principle is exactly the same. It's not like the Starks haven't disposed of vassels that revolt. House Greystark was wiped out, and Rickard Karstark lost his head for his treason.

When Robb calls the banners to war his lords think he'll be a push over. It's only when Grey wind starts biting off fingers that they start to respect him.

So how do you explain the Northerners still rallying behind House Stark at this point when the house is at its lowest and there is seemingly nothing to gain by doing so? Isn't it contradictory to say that House Stark is exhausted and "destroyed" but then also say that the bannermen are loyal to get stuff out of it? What "stuff" would that be at this point? What lands and titles are little Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly gunning for, do you think? :rolleyes:

If there are any houses in the Westerlands that would do for Myrcella or Tommen what the Manderlys, Umbers, Mormonts, mountain clans, etc. are doing for "Arya" and Rickon, I'll eat my hat. I can't really see a Payne or a Crakehall roaming through a hellacious blizzard "for Cersei's little girl."

Really, lands and privileges? Have you even read the books? At first it was a war to recover their Paramount Lord which meant going against the crown and the other 6 Kingdoms which would surely grant them more privileges than some boy. After Ned's death it became about Independece not expansion of their territory. If it was really about privileges why forsake their vow to the throne.

Exactly. In this case, the guys gunning for empty privileges are the people who BETRAYED the Starks, not the ones who are still loyal to them.

[jon stark I]

Starks are different then normal houses that is fo sure.They choose to help rather then attack.For example Manderlys were a poor family that was banished from their homeland and were given the most important place in all North.Starks are not like other houses because they follow justice and laws more then their own bannerman.For example they didn't destroy house Bolton but they did Greystarks because they were kinslayers and betrayers but I don't think they wiped out them they probably killed the elders and banished the surviving members rather then killing them.Not even one Bannerman talks badly about them when Starks ruled North a naked maiden could travel kingsroad and noone would try anything nasty against her.Starks are loved because they are STARKS.

[Lord Damian]

The Lannisters would like to think that they did so or atleast Tywin "did" want that. However, it will not be long before reports of a semi-feral child with a Wilding woman/spearwife caretaker and a great big, black Direwolf come to light and no doubt the story white harbor will translate regarding Theon's "supposed" exectution of Bran and Rickon. At this time, the Lannisters that are left do not care, except for Jaime and he will most likely do anything to help "any" of them. i desire him and Bran to look each other in the face one more time before this story is done.

[Toos]

I have question, Do anyone think that if Marbrand would marry Cersei for her claim againts her will that Crakehalls, Leffords, etc. would go throught blizzard to save her because she is Tywin's little daughter?