R+L=J v.46

[MtnLion]

Wouldn't matter whether Aemon was blind or not, given that Jon looks like a Stark

He looks somewhat like a Stark. Robb and Jon are dissimilar. Jon most resembles Arya. Aemon just has no clue that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

[finger]

Barristan wanted to crown Ashara so that she would be aware of his feelings for her. His hope was that she would look to him in her time of need, as she looked to a Stark. We know that Barristan was not intent on deflowering her, or impregnating her, because he also reaffirms his vow included celibacy. Instead of reading Barristan's thoughts with an eye toward him revealing the man who dishonored Ashara, since he won't, try to see what he was willing to do for Ashara, and transfer that to the Stark. Or, just take that one sentence completely out of context and analyze it. Barristan never thinks that Ashara was dishonored by a Stark. He never reveals who dishonored Ashara, in his entire monologue; that makes a case for it being Aerys. Then add in Barristan's misgivings about Aerys coming to the tourney (yeah, way back at the beginning of Barristan's thoughts about Harrenhal) and you will begin to notice a subtlety.

I get two things, rather obvious:

a) Barristan had a crush for Ashara

b Rhaegar crowing Lyanna had grievous consecuences.

That stated, should Barristan had won the tourney, he would have crowned Ashara, and the consecuences of b would have been avoided.

Part of these consecuences concerned Aerys, who was to be ousted, according the conspiracy hypothesis. This could be another reason to bring Aerys about.

But my doubt is, was Ashara upset for Rhaegar crowning Lyanna? We are seing it tells volumes about the R-A realtion.

[MtnLion]

I get two things, rather obvious:

a) Barristan had a crush for Ashara

B) Rhaegar crowing Lyanna had grievous consecuences.

That stated, should Barristan had won the tourney, he would have crowned Ashara, and the consecuences of B) would have been avoided.

Part of these consecuences concerned Aerys, who was to be ousted, according the conspiracy hypothesis. This could be another reason to bring Aerys about.

But my doubt is, was Ashara upset for Rhaegar crowning Lyanna? We are seing it tells volumes about the R-A realtion.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was unexpected, but did not have any consequences (except that Barristan did not win and could not crown Ashara, as he planned). Everyone had a reason to see Rhaegar's move as unexpected, hence the smiles faded. We are at least 9 months away from Brandon riding for King's Landing, and Aerys' madness that leads to the war.

Rhaegar had no relationship with Ashara. If you disagree show something that supports that hypothesis. Ashara had a relationship with Elia, they were the closest of friends, both from Dorne.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was unexpected, but did not have any consequences (except that Barristan did not win and could not crown Ashara, as he planned). Everyone had a reason to see Rhaegar's move as unexpected, hence the smiles faded. We are at least 9 months away from Brandon riding for King's Landing, and Aerys' madness that leads to the war.

Rhaegar had no relationship with Ashara. If you disagree show something that supports that hypothesis. Ashara had a relationship with Elia, they were the closest of friends, both from Dorne.

Ninja'd

There are textual indications of A+N, A+B, even A+A. Not one bit (that I've seen) for A+R.

[Ghost's Shadow]

*imagines Aemon playing a peeping tom in the bathhouse*

There's nothing wrong with not having an overly muscular built. He'd have to have suspicions already for it to matter and if he did, he might have voiced them to Jon, asked him more about how old he precisely was etc., which I don't think he did?

[lcd52]

Rhaegar had no relationship with Ashara. If you disagree show something that supports that hypothesis. Ashara had a relationship with Elia, they were the closest of friends, both from Dorne.

Where is it written that Elia and Ashara were the closest of friends? Not everyone from Dorne (or Lannisport or the Gates of the Moon) is the closest of friends just because they come from the same place.

Elia was fragile. She was never able to travel until the courtship tour because of her health. She probably had very few firends growing up.

I don't have any proof either, but I think Ashara was significantly younger than Elia. Not necessarily a LOT younger, but they weren't contemporaries. Ashara was younger, more vital, and more beautiful. I don't doubt Elia probably felt more comfortable with another Dornish-woman, but that doesn't mean they loved or trusted one another. And even Barristan says that Ashara was only lately come to Kings Landing.

Ashara's only close relationship was with her brother; which probably meant the entire Kingsguard treated her like a little sister.

[finger]

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was unexpected, but did not have any consequences (except that Barristan did not win and could not crown Ashara, as he planned). Everyone had a reason to see Rhaegar's move as unexpected, hence the smiles faded. We are at least 9 months away from Brandon riding for King's Landing, and Aerys' madness that leads to the war.

Rhaegar had no relationship with Ashara. If you disagree show something that supports that hypothesis. Ashara had a relationship with Elia, they were the closest of friends, both from Dorne.

If I'm not wrong, Ashara went to KL as Elia's lady-in-waiting, so:

Elia was sweet, but sickly, married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

Ashara was young, joyful, more than pretty,...

Rhaegar was also young, strong, gallant,...

They share the same roof.

(Rhaegar recanted Jon Connington.)

Hmm shall I draw a map? C'mon, even Cersei "bedded" a queen's lady-in-waiting (Btw, was it that they were for?, har)

Obviously A-R treated each other, they were sure to coincide at home very often. No wonder that noone bothered in stating it.

Of course, all that is circumstantial, and R could have treated A in the same way he treated his cupbearer. We know of their realtion, but nor how close it was.

Should they were lovers, they needed not let any evidence, or tell anyone. They had it very easy.

We don't know, but we can guess. The same thing can be said of many a detail in this series.

[Jon Icefyre]

If I'm not wrong, Ashara went to KL as Elia's lady-in-waiting, so:

Elia was sweet, but sickly, married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

Ashara was young, joyful, more than pretty,...

Rhaegar was also young, strong, gallant,...

They share the same roof.

(Rhaegar recanted Jon Connington.)

Hmm shall I draw a map? C'mon, even Cersei "bedded" a queen's lady-in-waiting (Btw, was it that they were for?, har)

Obviously A-R treated each other, they were sure to coincide at home very often. No wonder that noone bothered in stating it.

Of course, all that is circumstantial, and R could have treated A in the same way he treated his cupbearer. We know of their realtion, but nor how close it was.

Should they were lovers, they needed not let any evidence, or tell anyone. They had it very easy.

We don't know, but we can guess. The same thing can be said of many a detail in this series.

There's no actual textual evidence of any sort of relationship or even contact between Rhaegar and Ashara whatsoever, you're basing your entire theory off your own made up speculative ideas in your head. You have no hard proof or evidence from the books whatsoever to support Rhaegar being the father of Ashara's child, yet there is evidence supporting other men being the father of Ashara's child. If you come on here and continously try to sell us on a Rhaegar being the baby daddy of three different women theory that is pure 100% speculative, then I'm sorry but no one on here is gonna buy it.

[Stann]

There's not actual textual evidence of any sort of relationship or even contact between Rhaegar and Ashara whatsoever, you're basing you're entire theory off your own made up speculative ideas in your head. You have no hard proof or evidence from the books whatsoever to support Rhaegar being the father of Ashara's child, yet there is evidence supporting other men being the father of Ashara child. If you come on here and continously try to sell us on a Rhaegar being the baby daddy of three different women theory that is pure 100% speculative, then I'm sorry but no one on here is gonna buy it.

Not to mention that there are entirely too many theories about Rhaegar being the baby daddy of various children to take them all seriously. Either that dude was the biggest playa in Westeros, or the most of those kids had different dads...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Maester Aemon turned his head and looked at him with those dead white eyes. It was as if he were seeing right into his heart. Jon felt naked and exposed.

Aemon came very close to seeing him, apparently... :D

[FittleLinger]

There's no actual textual evidence of any sort of relationship or even contact between Rhaegar and Ashara whatsoever, you're basing your entire theory off your own made up speculative ideas in your head. You have no hard proof or evidence from the books whatsoever to support Rhaegar being the father of Ashara's child, yet there is evidence supporting other men being the father of Ashara's child. If you come on here and continously try to sell us on a Rhaegar being the baby daddy of three different women theory that is pure 100% speculative, then I'm sorry but no one on here is gonna buy it.

Not to mention that there are entirely too many theories about Rhaegar being the baby daddy of various children to take them all seriously. Either that dude was the biggest playa in Westeros, or the most of those kids had different dads...

Please guys, don't ignore me and tell me what is the point of all of this (that finger is making)? I hadn't read the thread before the last 2-3 pages. That Rhaegar was the father of Ashara's child? To what end and how does it develop the story? Please someone explain.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Please guys, don't ignore me and tell me what is the point of all of this (that finger is making)? I hadn't read the thread before the last 2-3 pages. That Rhaegar was the father of Ashara's child? To what end and how does it develop the story? Please someone explain.

Yes, in a nutshell-- there is a theory currently being put forth that Rhaegar fathered Ashara's child, which was then swapped with Elia's stillborn daughter. It does nothing to develop the plot and afaik there is not a single piece of evidence to support it, other than the feeling that "it could work"

Over to you slayer of wishful thinkers... ;)

[MtnLion]

Where is it written that Elia and Ashara were the closest of friends? Not everyone from Dorne (or Lannisport or the Gates of the Moon) is the closest of friends just because they come from the same place.

Elia was fragile. She was never able to travel until the courtship tour because of her health. She probably had very few firends growing up.

I don't have any proof either, but I think Ashara was significantly younger than Elia. Not necessarily a LOT younger, but they weren't contemporaries. Ashara was younger, more vital, and more beautiful. I don't doubt Elia probably felt more comfortable with another Dornish-woman, but that doesn't mean they loved or trusted one another. And even Barristan says that Ashara was only lately come to Kings Landing.

Ashara's only close relationship was with her brother; which probably meant the entire Kingsguard treated her like a little sister.

The actual bit about Elia and Ashara being close is in an SSM. But, it should be apparent from Barristan's memories, on Page 879 of Dance:

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, in a nutshell-- there is a theory currently being put forth that Rhaegar fathered Ashara's child, which was then swapped with Elia's stillborn daughter. It does nothing to develop the plot and afaik there is not a single piece of evidence to support it, other than the feeling that "it could work"

Over to you slayer of wishful thinkers... ;)

Thanks so much, Lady Gwynhyvfar.

Ok, is this child Jon? I just need this answered to pose a few questions.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thanks so much, Lady Gwynhyvfar.

Ok, is this child Jon? I just need this answered to pose a few questions.

No, for sake of argument, the child is fAegon. Much of theory actually mirrors commonly accepted theories- fAegon being Ashara's child and Septa Lemore being Ashara. The difference being that Rhaegar is postulated to be the father.

eta- by commonly accepted, I mean in these precincts, not necessarily forumland as a whole

[MtnLion]

If I'm not wrong, Ashara went to KL as Elia's lady-in-waiting, so:

Elia was sweet, but sickly, married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

Ashara was young, joyful, more than pretty,...

Rhaegar was also young, strong, gallant,...

They share the same roof.

(Rhaegar recanted Jon Connington.)

Hmm shall I draw a map? C'mon, even Cersei "bedded" a queen's lady-in-waiting (Btw, was it that they were for?, har)

Obviously A-R treated each other, they were sure to coincide at home very often. No wonder that noone bothered in stating it.

Of course, all that is circumstantial, and R could have treated A in the same way he treated his cupbearer. We know of their realtion, but nor how close it was.

Should they were lovers, they needed not let any evidence, or tell anyone. They had it very easy.

We don't know, but we can guess. The same thing can be said of many a detail in this series.

Elia amd Ashara were friends. It seems to me that they were of very similar age. Rhaegar, by all evidence in the books, is 100% faithful to Elia until she can no longer have children. If you think otherwise, please produce anything that hints that Rhaegar was less than honorable, from anyone other than Robert Baratheon's POV.

[Jon Icefyre]

Thanks so much, Lady Gwynhyvfar.

Ok, is this child Jon? I just need this answered to pose a few questions.

No finger thinks Rhaegar and Ashara's child is young griff/Faegon, but he also thinks that R+L=J is true and that the real Aegon died at KL, so the child Rhaegar had with Ashara is not Aegon but someone else entirely. So in a nutshell Rhaegar is the father to the children of three different women Elia, Ashara, and Lyanna.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

No finger thinks Rhaegar and Ashara's child is young griff/Faegon, but he also thinks that R+L=J is true and that the real Aegon died at KL, so the child Rhaegar had with Ashara is not Aegon but someone else entirely. So in a nutshell Rhaegar is the father to the children of three different women Elia, Ashara, and Lyanna.

Was that it? Not even a baby swap? There were three boys? Honestly I'm so bloody confused by this line of reasoning...

[FittleLinger]

No finger thinks Rhaegar and Ashara's child is young griff/Faegon, but he also thinks that R+L=J is true and that the real Aegon died at KL, so the child Rhaegar had with Ashara is not Aegon but someone else entirely. So in a nutshell Rhaegar is the father to the children of three different women Elia, Ashara, and Lyanna.

Thanks too you too, Jon.

Ok, who utilized this swap and to what end? Preservation of the Targ line through a bastard with the idea to bring him in 17 years? Why did Ashara agree or she wasn't given a choice?

Sorry for using you guys as a summary as you are not obliged to, and thanks.

[Jon Icefyre]

Was that it? Not even a baby swap? There were three boys? Honestly I'm so bloody confused by this line of reasoning...

I have a somewhat strange theory, that I've already told elsewhere. Ashara was a Dornishwoman, as welll as Elia, and she served as a lady with her. She also was sister to the best Raeghar's friend. She should be most familiar with Raeghar. Both of them are told to be most atractive, while Elia was sickly. Altogether, Ashara's chid was Raeghar's.

Moreover, Ashara didn't miscarry. Her son is YG. Too many babyswapping,... Real Aegon died in KL sack, whatever is being told by now.

Ashara (septa Melara?) flew with his son for the same reason that Ned was concealling Jon's real identity. When Ned came back to Starfall to take Jon, he told what happened to Raeghar's family, and the Daynes hid them with that story of miscarriage and suicide. That could explain the bad felling from Daynes to Lannisters.

Well, I can't know if it's true, but I find it more coherent than most other notions.

BTW. Aerys is rather Tyrion's father, isn't he? Well, that's more than enough to leave it to the proper thread.

Yes it seems there was no baby swap