R+L=J v.46

[Jon Icefyre]

Thanks too you too, Jon.

Ok, who utilized this swap and to what end? Preservation of the Targ line through a bastard with the idea to bring him in 17 years? Why did Ashara agree or she wasn't given a choice?

Sorry for using you guys as a summary as you are not obliged to, and thanks.

There was no baby swap lol

[FittleLinger]

So where did the stillborn child come from? There must have been a stillborn child, a lady like Ashara doesn't give birth by herself, say there was a stillborn child, and no questions get asked?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thanks too you too, Jon.

Ok, who utilized this swap and to what end? Preservation of the Targ line through a bastard with the idea to bring him in 17 years? Why did Ashara agree or she wasn't given a choice?

Sorry for using you guys as a summary as you are not obliged to, and thanks.

If the theory is as Jon Icefyre understands-- and I just went back a re read the exchange so yes it is! - that there actually was real Aegon who died at KL I have no idea what the point is. I was operating under the standard baby-swap/preservation of Targs with Varys unknowing as to the original swap by Ashara/Elia assumption but it does not appear that's what we're dealing with here. I am confused and bemused :huh:

And right- upon my review, nary a mention of the stillborn :dunno:

[FittleLinger]

If the theory is as Jon Icefyre understands-- and I just went back a re read the exchange so yes it is! - that there actually was real Aegon who died at KL I have no idea what the point is. I was operating under the standard baby-swap/preservation of Targs with Varys unknowing as to the original swap by Ashara/Elia assumption but it does not appear that's what we're dealing with here. I am confused and bemused :huh:

And right- upon my review, nary a mention of the stillborn :dunno:

Thank you once again, Lady G.

So, Ashara delivers who we know today as Young Griff. Lyanna delivers Jon. Elia delivers real Aegon. All of them are fathered by Rhaegar.

Aegon gets smashed, Jon is Jon, and YG is in the company of Connington.

The questions are: why did Ashara kill herself (or did she not, is she Septa Lemore or someone else?), where is the stillborn everyone is talking about, when did the Rhaegar/Ashara thing happen, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna at HH, why and how did Varys decide to use Ashara's child, and why did she agree (if she is alive) and as a whole what does Varys have to do with the Daynes?

That's of course omitting the lack of evidence about a Rhaegar/Ashara thing whatsoever, and a few fairly reliable people having the feeling that Rhaegar would not be unfaithful or whoring (we are in their heads, they really think this), Lyanna's feelings towards Robert about how he would be unfaithful (and then choosing Rhaegar, if, of course, you think it was consentual).

finger, please expalin when you come about ;)

[Jon Icefyre]

Thank you once again, Lady G.

So, Ashara delivers who we know today as Young Griff. Lyanna delivers Jon. Elia delivers real Aegon. All of them are fathered by Rhaegar.

Aegon gets smashed, Jon is Jon, and YG is in the company of Connington.

The questions are: why did Ashara kill herself (or did she not, is she Septa Lemore or someone else?), where is the stillborn everyone is talking about, when did the Rhaegar/Ashara thing happen, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna at HH, why and how did Varys decide to use Ashara's child, and why did she agree (if she is alive) and as a whole what does Varys have to do with the Daynes?

That's of course omitting the lack of evidence about a Rhaegar/Ashara thing whatsoever, and a few fairly reliable people having the feeling that Rhaegar would not be unfaithful or whoring (we are in their heads, they really think this), Lyanna's feelings towards Robert about how he would be unfaithful (and then choosing Rhaegar, if, of course, you think it was consentual).

finger, please expalin when you come about ;)

Oh apparently the Daynes told Ned a cover story that Ashara had a stillborn daughter and that she committed suicide when in reality she didn't and is actually Septa Lemore, and the Daynes told this lie to Ned in order to protect YG's identity the same Ned lied to protect Jon Snow's identity. I posted Finger's exact post about this on page 17 idk if you read it or skipped over it but if you didn't read it you should go back to page 17 and read his post I quoted lol.

[FittleLinger]

Oh apparently the Daynes told Ned a cover story that Ashara had a stillborn daughter and that she committed suicide when in reality she didn't and is actually Septa Lemore, and the Daynes told this lie to Ned in order to protect YG's identity the same Ned lied to protect Jon Snow's identity. I posted Finger's exact post about this on page 17 idk if you read it or skipped over it but if you didn't read it you should go back to page 17 and read his post I quoted lol.

I had missed it, I read it now, thanks.

Wait wait. So apparently, Ned went to Starfall to take Jon?

Those questions remain - where is the stillborn everyone is talking about, when did the Rhaegar/Ashara thing happen, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna at HH, why and how did Varys decide to use Ashara's child, and why did she agree (if she is alive) and as a whole what does Varys have to do with the Daynes?

[Jon Icefyre]

I had missed it, I read it now, thanks.

Wait wait. So apparently, Ned went to Starfall to take Jon?

Those questions remain - where is the stillborn everyone is talking about, when did the Rhaegar/Ashara thing happen, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna at HH, why and how did Varys decide to use Ashara's child, and why did she agree (if she is alive) and as a whole what does Varys have to do with the Daynes?

Well to put it all in a nutshell it's a typical alternative theory that focuses exclusively on one aspect of the story involving Rhaegar that seems to make sense to the theorist without taking into account all the plot holes it creates and ways it contradicts/doesn't make sense with all the other aspects of the overall story.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

snip

*sigh*

[Jon Icefyre]

*sigh*

Haha I know right :bang:

[Ser Pollo Loco]

It might still matter, as Jon has Rhaegar's build. If Aemon could see, he'd probably be even more reminded of the Targs he knew, like Aegon V.

I don't know whether Jon has some sort of Rhaegar characteristic, but it would explain Barriston's absence in Winterfell if he does

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I don't know whether Jon has some sort of Rhaegar characteristic, but it would explain Barriston's absence in Winterfell if he does

Yes, from a plot perspective I think this is the same as Benjen and Howland Reed being held offstage. Those who know (or might guess) too much are not allowed in contact with Jon, which is telling in itself.

[Alia of the knife]

Your interesting is my convoluted, but, hey, your call.

Amen. Especially to the part on Lyanna.

:bowdown:

mm I certainly can see that, I feel its a very interesting point

Yes, and Cersei takes it further by showing some sympathy, (for as much as she can), to Ashara and the thought that Ned had taken her son from her.

Well done, and clarifying.

Only a little problem: it makes the character of Ashara all but irrelevant. It'd be no more that a red herring in order to let you think she's Jon's mother. And the complete plot around her would be: she's not Jon's mother, she's dead for good, forget about her. No matter who dishonoured her, in the end, she miscarried her girl. Well, maybe you're right, but somehow, it makes me uneasy.

The ToH was meant as part of a conspiracy, finaly failed, and it ends up with Rhaegar chosing Lyanna, and starting a war. He was a prince and a married man, he could have chosen the Hand's daughter or his own wife. But he chose Lyanna and made her his lover. This should have been a true scandal, but nobody tells much about it.

Instead, Barristan recalls he could have won the tourney and crowned Ashara; Meera tells who Ashara danced with,... Too many quotes for an unimportant character in such an important event. In ten days of tourney, she hardly must be the only one who got impregnated.

Honestly, doesn't it leave you guessing?

BTW, of course Barristan is a reference when dealing with honour issues. But this is also the problem with him: he tends to be too focused in honour and he can miss important details.

Well, I'm not one that is necessarily in the Ashara is Septa Lemore, camp.

As part of a multilayered tragedy, Ashara being dead along with Brandon and their child is part of the mosaic of grief that encompassed four families:

- The Daynes

- The Targaryens

- The Martells

- The Starks themselves.

I know there are many formiddable theories advancing that Septa Lemore, but to me IMHO, it feels more like that is something that is "trying to be," rather than fitting naturally.

Septa Lemore is over forty according to Tyrion, and while he may not have his ages correct on young people, for women, I imagine he's pretty savy at figuring that out, so on his ability to guess, I take the to-be-determined route.

If she was the same age as Lyanna who was sixteen when she died, had they lived fourteen years later when the book opens, Lyanna would have been thirty and so would Ashara.

If I'm generous, and put her between Ned, Robert and Brandons age, then she's around eighteen to twenty, which fourteen year later would make her thirty-two, to thirty-six years of age, which is still a stretch to say she looks around six years older than that if she's in her early to mid forties.

If at best she's thirty-six, then she must have lived a very hard life out in the elements, which doesn't make sense if she's just teaching Aegon. Also someone mentioned being more exposed to the elements might age her, but dressed as Septa, most of her skin is covered, and is likely more protected from the elements than in her natural habitat.

Another thing, everyone pretty much has their hair dyed. What if the dark hair that Tyrion saw is not her natural color,especially over forty- not a strand of grey?

Anyway, I digress. My point is is that Ashara may NOT be irrelevant to the story as anything other than a plot device for the Author to give some cover to Ned.

Shes dead, so it doesn't matter if people think Jon is her son.

If there is a candidate for her child, I think it's actually Allyria, her supposed younger sister who was just recently betrothed, so, there could be a potential warging she-wolf in Starfall.

What does Rhaegar fathering yet another "super soldier" do in this case?

Nothing but make the story sound more like Jerry Springer, and that is not to insult you, but theres just too much already with the baby swaps. After awhile, who remembers who the baby daddys are?

The idea that Varys as a Blackfyre agent might sneak in a Blackfyre, (maybe born of Aerions Brightflames line and a Blackfyre female, since his line was passed over), on and emotionally vulnerable JonCon, or an Ashara (if it is her), flows better.

JonCon didn't want to fail Rhaegar, and Ashara may have felt she failed Elia in her behavior either at Court, or with her activities at Starfall where she may have helped Rhaegar and Lyanna, along with her Brother.

But, perhaps this Septa is a Blackfyre herself, as she would also have good reason to lay low in Westeros.

The baby swaps we have have a function:

- it saves Jons life

- Aegon may be the real deal after all is said and done, because Martin never confirmed his death, only Rhaenys.

And most importantly, it provides a backdrop for Jons actions when he engages in some baby-swapping, and later, provides an allegory to his reaction in finding out about his own idenity, as well as the likely subsequent anger at Ned and coming to terms with the lie.

Now, after all this talk about babies, I have to run to a baby shower............ :leaving:

[FittleLinger]

Ok, let's start a minor spin off tangent. What does everyone think of Jon and the Wall? Namely, was Ned "brainwashing" (not the best word) Jon for the wall from some time earlier? Was Benjen on it as well? It would have had to be done in an eloquent way, not being a dick about him being a bastard, but still confiriming the notion that Stark bastards go to the NW. I think Theon's initial plot purpose was for Jon to see himself as more like Theon than Robb, so that he could feel he doesnt "fit"?

[Jon Icefyre]

Ok, let's start a minor spin off tangent. What does everyone think of Jon and the Wall? Namely, was Ned "brainwashing" (not the best word) Jon for the wall from some time earlier? Was Benjen on it as well? It would have had to be done in an eloquent way, not being a dick about him being a bastard, but still confiriming the notion that Stark bastards go to the NW. I think Theon's initial plot purpose was for Jon to see himself as more like Theon than Robb, so that he could feel he doesnt "fit"?

Also Maester Luwin was the one who suggested it to Cat and Ned so did he possibly know or at least suspect a little somethin somethin about Jon? I mean he's a smart man he could have picked up subtle signs from Ned's behavior towards Jon and the added that with what he knew about the rebellion and put the clues together, Maester Luwin seemed like a pretty sharp guy.

[FittleLinger]

Also Maester Luwin was the one who suggested it to Cat and Ned so did he possibly know or at least suspect a little somethin somethin about Jon? I mean he's a smart man he could have picked up subtle signs from Ned's behavior towards Jon and the added that with what he knew about the rebellion and put the clues together, Maester Luwin seemed like a pretty sharp guy.

That's food for thought as well, he suggested that Theon should go to the wall as well (in books too, I hope?), when he was in a pretty dire situation.

But something just struck me, so I'm sorry to drift away from what I just tried to start. I think someone must have theorized, but I honestly haven't seen it.

When Jon tells Bran, "Don't look away, father will know" when beheading the NW deserter (the first words we ever hear from Jon I think). Isn't it foreshadwoing that Bran should look, see, and not look away, and even tell Jon when he finds out about Jon with the weirnet? Because his father (Rhaegar) didn't intend it that way? Rhaegar brought two KG when he "kidnapped" Lyanna, I think the main purpose was to be witnesses to their wedding before a weirwood. And in a sense Rhaegar "will know" that there was a way for Jon to know, and this way is through Bran...

[corbon]

Only a little problem: it makes the character of Ashara all but irrelevant. ...

Too many quotes for an unimportant character in such an important event. In ten days of tourney, she hardly must be the only one who got impregnated.

Honestly, doesn't it leave you guessing?

Try Ashara maybe being Ned's information on the ToJ location. Unimportant?

Try maybe Ashara's suicide being a fake, and her meeting a ship carrying fAegon off to Essos where she raises him, currently disguised as a Septa.

I get two things, rather obvious:

b Rhaegar crowing Lyanna had grievous consecuences.

That stated, should Barristan had won the tourney, he would have crowned Ashara, and the consecuences of b would have been avoided.

Part of these consecuences concerned Aerys, who was to be ousted, according the conspiracy hypothesis. This could be another reason to bring Aerys about.

Sorry, but that not good logic. The 'consequences' of b ) are specifically to Barristan and Ashara's relationship and her looking to Stark later. Its not logical to assume wider consequences.

If I'm not wrong, Ashara went to KL as Elia's lady-in-waiting, so:

Elia was sweet, but sickly, married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

Ashara was young, joyful, more than pretty,...

Rhaegar was also young, strong, gallant,...

They share the same roof.

(Rhaegar recanted Jon Connington.)

Hmm shall I draw a map? C'mon, even Cersei "bedded" a queen's lady-in-waiting (Btw, was it that they were for?, har)

Except Rhaegar was famously dutiful.

And fond of Elia.

There is nothing here but low moral standards being projected despite every reliable piece of evidence showing the opposite.

I know there are many formiddable theories advancing that Septa Lemore, but to me IMHO, it feels more like that is something that is "trying to be," rather than fitting naturally.

Septa Lemore is over forty according to Tyrion, and while he may not have his ages correct on young people, for women, I imagine he's pretty savy at figuring that out, so on his ability to guess, I take the to-be-determined route.

If she was the same age as Lyanna who was sixteen when she died, had they lived fourteen years later when the book opens, Lyanna would have been thirty and so would Ashara.

If I'm generous, and put her between Ned, Robert and Brandons age, then she's around eighteen to twenty, which fourteen year later would make her thirty-two, to thirty-six years of age, which is still a stretch to say she looks around six years older than that if she's in her early to mid forties.

If at best she's thirty-six, then she must have lived a very hard life out in the elements, which doesn't make sense if she's just teaching Aegon. Also someone mentioned being more exposed to the elements might age her, but dressed as Septa, most of her skin is covered, and is likely more protected from the elements than in her natural habitat.

Another thing, everyone pretty much has their hair dyed. What if the dark hair that Tyrion saw is not her natural color,especially over forty- not a strand of grey?

But Tyrion doesn't guess Lemore's age at the start of the first book, he does it 3+ years later. Which by your own calculations puts her significantly closer to 40 (33(dubious)-39) anyway.

And its surely not reasonable to take a known data point (Tyrion is bad at ages) and just randomly decide it doesn't count for this instance - especially when middle aged women's ages are notoriously impossible for men to guess.

And inventing grey hair and hair dye, when we have no such clues in the text?

I'll throw your own words back at you and say these objections sound like something 'trying to be' rather than natural objections. :P ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Try Ashara maybe being Ned's information on the ToJ location. Unimportant?

Try maybe Ashara's suicide being a fake, and her meeting a ship carrying fAegon off to Essos where she raises him, currently disguised as a Septa.

Sorry, but that not good logic. The 'consequences' of b ) are specifically to Barristan and Ashara's relationship and her looking to Stark later. Its not logical to assume wider consequences.

Except Rhaegar was famously dutiful.

And fond of Elia.

There is nothing here but low moral standards being projected despite every reliable piece of evidence showing the opposite.

But Tyrion doesn't guess Lemore's age at the start of the first book, he does it 3+ years later. Which by your own calculations puts her significantly closer to 40 (33(dubious)-39) anyway.

And its surely not reasonable to take a known data point (Tyrion is bad at ages) and just randomly decide it doesn't count for this instance - especially when middle aged women's ages are notoriously impossible for men to guess.

And inventing grey hair and hair dye, when we have no such clues in the text?

I'll throw your own words back at you and say these objections sound like something 'trying to be' rather than natural objections. :P ;)

I'm okay with her story line either way, but I'm not ready to hop on the Septa/Ashara train just yet, maybe later down the road. :D

(And she'd better have at least ONE grey hair, or "Loreal" is in trouble). :devil:

[Ser Creighton]

I had missed it, I read it now, thanks.

Wait wait. So apparently, Ned went to Starfall to take Jon?

Those questions remain - where is the stillborn everyone is talking about, when did the Rhaegar/Ashara thing happen, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna at HH, why and how did Varys decide to use Ashara's child, and why did she agree (if she is alive) and as a whole what does Varys have to do with the Daynes?

A stillborn is a child born dead, so I would assume they buried the baby, not sure why they would keep it or carry it around the child being dead and all.

What Rhaegar/Ashara thing?

Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna? Not a lot of reasons, 2 maybe 3 really and your guess is as good as anyones at this point. It has not been revealed, so nobody actually knows, so the question is a bit difficult to answer.

Ashara's Child and Varys?

Varys has not been shown to have anything to do with the Daynes.

Did I miss something or is someone trolling an implausible theory?

[Jon Icefyre]

A stillborn is a child born dead, so I would assume they buried the baby, not sure why they would keep it or carry it around the child being dead and all.

What Rhaegar/Ashara thing?

Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna? Not a lot of reasons, 2 maybe 3 really and your guess is as good as anyones at this point. It has not been revealed, so nobody actually knows, so the question is a bit difficult to answer.

Ashara's Child and Varys?

Varys has not been shown to have anything to do with the Daynes.

Did I miss something or is someone trolling an implausible theory?

Haha my friend I like you but you have no Idea what you're arguing right now lol. FittleLinger and the rest of us are disccusing a crackpot theory made by another member named finger go back to page 17 and look and my post where I quoted finger's post and you'll see what we're all talking about bro it's the very last post on page 17.

[Ser Creighton]

He looks somewhat like a Stark. Robb and Jon are dissimilar. Jon most resembles Arya. Aemon just has no clue that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

He does not look somewhat like a Stark, he looks like a Stark, from Tyrion's POV, from Cats and From Ned who thought Jon looked just like him. Ned thinks this about Jon it's an internal monologue in AGoT. There is no question he looks just like a Stark. It doesn't mean anything other than he has Stark blood, but that is what he looks like. He does not look like Rhaegar, maybe he has his ears or something, but he is average hight, lean built, long face, grey eyes, dark brown hair.

Rhaegar was Tall, silver haired, Violet eyes, and crazy handsome. Jon has none of those traits, Jon is rather average in most aspects. Lyanna and Brandon looked like Starks as well but they were very attractive Starks, Jon is much more like Ned who looks like a rather average Stark.