R+L=J v.46

[Jon Icefyre]

And oh shit got to go Boston marathon.

Wait did you run in that or are you just watching it? My cousin ran that and I heard there were a few literal explosions at the finish line.

[MtnLion]

Well to be fare Matin will tell you nobody is 100% moral, but how that plays out is a different story. Being a good person who made a mistake or mistakes is not uncommon. The biggest question around Lyanna + Rhaegar the love story is really why? Because even if it is love it does not make sense for the man. I am not talking about what Mormont, Vis or Selmy said, but rather all the indications of his life and choices. If you just study what the history is opinions of characters aside, Rhaegar seemed to be dutiful, intelligent, caring, and generally a good man. Ned Stark was also a very good man but he made mistakes. But if you try putting yourself in his shoes, very little about what he did with Lyanna is rather perplexing.

Ned reflects that there is only one stain on his honor, not multiple ones. Mistakes are another thing. But, I really don't understand your question. Rhaegar obviously has deep respect for Lyanna leading him to give her the crown at tourney's end. It seems likely that he developed this respect when he learned the true identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and we know that at least one of the Kingsguard was with him when he made his discovery. Ser Arthur is his closest friend and confidant if Jon COnnington and Barristan can be believed. Putting myself into Ned's or Rhaegar's shoes is not a method of determining the character of the person being portrayed. What I would do is definitely different than a feudal man would do.

He's born into a dying house, when he is Born and for a large portion of his young life his parents and himself are the last 3 Targayens alive. Probably had a effect on his life.

You'll need to explain what makes it a dying house. It seems to me that Rhaegar, Viserys, and later Daenerys are viable, and Rhaegar himself has two children with Elia. I think that there are other Targaryens off stage. And, we know who Maester Aemon is. There was the tragedy at Summerhall, when Rhaegar was born. Still don't get why it would be termed a dying house.

As a child he is mature for his age but would rather have books than friends. Reads a scroll one day and decides he needss to become a warrior, not his first instinct as a child, books were what he was drawn to. But he took up the sword and lance. Intresting enough I think it was actually good for him, I think that is where he developed his first friends. It exposed him to a different part of his peoples culture. He learns to love the tilts. You can tell not because of what Selmy said, but the guy competed on multiple occassions. It's not really common for a Prince to do that, and it appears he competed full on, nobody was pulliing their punches.

I think that there are hints that there are times that the punches are pulled. We just know that at Harrenhal they weren't.

Takes up music at some point early on and is gifted, it's his first love, and he excells at it. Seems to enjoy performing as well, as he performs on multiple occasions for an audience. Competing in the tourneys also suggests Rhaegar liked to perform for a crowd. He was the kingdoms rockstar and I think he enjoyed that.

Sure, the small folk cheered Aerys. They cheered Tywinn twice as loud. But, for Rhaegar it was even louder still.

Summerhall, as a young man he is known to frequent Summerhall and it effects him, and he can be emotional about the tragedy. I am guessing this is guilt, which would seem strange since it was not his fault. But I think he blames himself and also I don't think he went there to be emo, I think he was probably trying to figure out exactly what Aegon was doing. It's said Aegon was trying to wake the Dragons, Aegon believed Aerys was going to father the line of the Prince that was Promised. Rhaegar was soon to be born and I think they were trying to wake the Dragons for him. So he blames himself for the great loss of his family, he shouldn't but it would be pretty normal if he felt guilt about it.

Extrapolating something that we have no hints of seems to be a forte. The only thing we know for sure was that he would not take a Kingsguard with him to Summerhall, they waited some distance off, and that he would return more melancholy afterwards with perhaps a new song or two.

His father decides to find a wife for Rhaegar, and I don't think it's forced, I think he talked to his son about it. I think Rhaegar understood his duty and I think he may have suggested bringing in new Valyrian blood. At this point I think his father was showing some signs. I think Rhaegar may have viewed it as a good idea to get new blood and at the same time being the last of Valyria.

Showing signs of what? After Duskendale Aerys became withdrawn and fearful. He never sat comfortably upon the throne, leading to some calling him king scab, quietly of course. Aerys did not display full-blown madness, prompting Rhaegar to do anything until the rebellion.

And oh shit got to go Boston marathon.

Sorry, still waiting for some hint in the text that Rhaegar was not 100% faithful to Elia until she could not longer produce heirs.

[Jon Icefyre]

double post sorry

[finger]

Try Ashara maybe being Ned's information on the ToJ location. Unimportant?

Try maybe Ashara's suicide being a fake, and her meeting a ship carrying fAegon off to Essos where she raises him, currently disguised as a Septa.

Sorry, but that not good logic. The 'consequences' of b ) are specifically to Barristan and Ashara's relationship and her looking to Stark later. Its not logical to assume wider consequences.

Except Rhaegar was famously dutiful.

And fond of Elia.

There is nothing here but low moral standards being projected despite every reliable piece of evidence showing the opposite.

But Tyrion doesn't guess Lemore's age at the start of the first book, he does it 3+ years later. Which by your own calculations puts her significantly closer to 40 (33(dubious)-39) anyway.

And its surely not reasonable to take a known data point (Tyrion is bad at ages) and just randomly decide it doesn't count for this instance - especially when middle aged women's ages are notoriously impossible for men to guess.

And inventing grey hair and hair dye, when we have no such clues in the text?

I'll throw your own words back at you and say these objections sound like something 'trying to be' rather than natural objections. :P ;)

The point is: hints of Ashara are such that the character begs more play.

I get you agree with this, and that's why you give two instances,

I don't think she could give any information to Ned, but it seems you're not comfortable with her killing herself. Is it?

IMHO, it's not a good method to try to apply a moral code that people in the series don't abide.

Targaryen as a whole are depicted as not shy to take what they want, be it a kingdom or a mate.

Daenerys, for one, is a danger to anything in pants, even her maids. And she's dutyfull as hell.

And Rhaegar was fond of Elia, but he loved Lyanna. His hypothetic flirt with Ashara was before he met L, in my theory.

Rhaegar crowning L had no consequences? OMG, it only started Robert's rebellion. Not bad.

[FittleLinger]

Rhaegar crowning L had no consequences? OMG, it only started Robert's rebellion. Not bad.

No, it actually didn't. It raised a few eyebrows.

You can say the "abduction" did, but that would not be entirely correct either.

What started it is Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and ordering Jon Arryn to bring him Ned and Robert's heads.

Just saying, not really related to any theory.

[Ygrain]

IMHO, it's not a good method to try to apply a moral code that people in the series don't abide.

Targaryen as a whole are depicted as not shy to take what they want, be it a kingdom or a mate.

Daenerys, for one, is a danger to anything in pants, even her maids. And she's dutyfull as hell.

Broadly generalized and incorrect. Starks as a whole are depicted as a honour-abiding lot, yet we have the wild wolf Brandon dishonouring young Barbrey. Individual actions do matter, and for Rhaegar's individual actions, there is no evidence for what you suggest.

Rhaegar crowning L had no consequences? OMG, it only started Robert's rebellion. Not bad.

Nonsense. The Rebellion started only a year the tourney, and only after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert and Jon Arryn refused to obey the order.

ETA: ninjaed :-)

[finger]

A stillborn is a child born dead, so I would assume they buried the baby, not sure why they would keep it or carry it around the child being dead and all.

What Rhaegar/Ashara thing?

Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna? Not a lot of reasons, 2 maybe 3 really and your guess is as good as anyones at this point. It has not been revealed, so nobody actually knows, so the question is a bit difficult to answer.

Ashara's Child and Varys?

Varys has not been shown to have anything to do with the Daynes.

Did I miss something or is someone trolling an implausible theory?

As far as I'm concerned, I made up a theory, and I don't feel any guilty.

I'm trying to test it because I find it feasible.

It's not equal to it's forcibly true and all the rest is wrong.

You might have noticed that the plot has plenty of gaps, and some people are trying to fill them.

[FittleLinger]

As far as I'm concerned, I made up a theory, and I don't feel any guilty.

I'm trying to test it because I find it feasible.

It's not equal to it's forcibly true and all the rest is wrong.

You might have noticed that the plot has plenty of gaps, and some people are trying to fill them.

He was responding to my post as he was not aware that I was talking about your theory ;)

[finger]

Haha my friend I like you but you have no Idea what you're arguing right now lol. FittleLinger and the rest of us are disccusing a crackpot theory made by another member named finger go back to page 17 and look and my post where I quoted finger's post and you'll see what we're all talking about bro it's the very last post on page 17.

Oh, yes, the theory doesn't work because we don't have any clues of R having any relation with his wife's ladies, or anybody in his homestaff.

A mighty objection, by the seven.

[MtnLion]

Oh, yes, the theory doesn't work because we don't have any clues of R having any relation with his wife's ladies, or anybody in his homestaff.

A mighty objection, by the seven.

We don't have any hints that Rhaegar did anything amoral, or undutiful. So, if making something up that contradicts textual evidence is what we should do, we may as well throw away the books.

[finger]

Yeah, we are discussing the crackpot that Rhaegar impregnated Ashara, too (he's been a very busy man), and the child is Young Griff...

Well, he was strong as to win tourneys overcoming the cream of chivalry. He could sire a child or another.

I'm suppsosing him having sex with three women, one of them his duty, and the others not at the same time, the last one a mad love. I wouldn't blame him.

[Jon Icefyre]

IMHO, it's not a good method to try to apply a moral code that people in the series don't abide.

Targaryen as a whole are depicted as not shy to take what they want, be it a kingdom or a mate.

Daenerys, for one, is a danger to anything in pants, even her maids. And she's dutyfull as hell.

Nonesense there were plenty of Targs that were not considered man whore's who gave into every sexual desire they had and took whatever mate they wanted, hell Balelor l went his enitre life without having sex with anyone. So this idea that the Targs have some sort of whorish family trait that led Rhaegar to impregante three different women is complete and utter nonsense.

[Jon Icefyre]

We don't have any hints that Rhaegar did anything amoral, or undutiful. So, if making something up that contradicts textual evidence is what we should do, we may as well throw away the books.

Honestly when someone has no textual evidence at all to backup their theory and have had multiple ppl point that out and, strongly disagree with the very core of the theory yet the person continues to press the theory based off of nothing but their own personal speculation it's called trolling.

[finger]

Actually, various POV characters mention the scandal of Rhaegar and Lyanna quite a lot, though not usually in conjunction with Harrenhall.

But I think the layering of the stories is one of the things that makes ASOIAF so compelling, but more to the point, if each character just sat down and said, "Here, reader, THIS is what you're supposed to know", well, that would make things a whole lot less mysterious. So from Barristan's account (colored by his regrets, his desires), we get part of the story of the ToH, and from Meera's story of the KotLT, we get another part. GRRM builds his backstory inside of stories and the reader can pick out details like finding clues in a mystery novel.

Wow. I never thought about that. Convenient, to have a Dayne daughter about the same age as Ashara's stillborn baby.

Hypothetical question: if Ned had discovered Lyanna's child before his argument with Robert over the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon (or the Faegon babe), would he have trusted Robert with the knowledge? Ned sure broods over Robert's hatred of dragonspawn, and I imagine the image of that bloody cloak precipitated his lies in addition to his promise to Lyanna.

I agree. That's why we like the series.

There are many thinks not explained, and we try to make for it.

We all do it, I don't understand why people get so sanguine wihen others are doing it.

Anyhow, there seems to be a reason to hide Ashara's child. What is it?

I've advanced the R possibility, but I can read another one.

[finger]

Wait I thought the Child was Tyrion, no wait that's Aerys II. Ummm Young Griff? How about Dany maybe he was really close to his mother and he did stop by KL before the Trident. Not unheard of for a Targ. Maybe Vis as well, probably Gendry too. If you look at a lot of the theories Rhaegar and his dad fathered half of Westeros and Robert the other half. Oh that Targ blood. My personal favorite is Aerys fathered Jamie but not Cersie. Don't ask it's a theory.

There's a little difference between a theory and BS, but I don't have the time to explain it now.

[MtnLion]

Well, he was strong as to win tourneys overcoming the cream of chivalry.

And that makes him sexually active, I think that one can be good at tourneys, and such without impregnating women, since Brienne falls into that category.

He could sire a child or another.

I'm suppsosing him having sex with three women, one of them his duty, and the others not at the same time, the last one a mad love. I wouldn't blame him.

We know that Elia had two children, and that after the second was born she and the child would be killed by any further pregnancies. We see Rhaegar becoming distressed about Elia not being able to supply another child, in Daenerys' HotU vision. So, about a year after the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar and Lyanna hookup, and there is strong indicators that they were married. Jon being legitimate places him firmly ahead of Daenerys in line for the throne.

[finger]

@finger, I am still waiting for you to find a single suggestion from anyone other than Robert that Rhaegar was not 100% morally upstanding and faithful to Elia, until after the birth of Aegon.

ETA: I am not in opposition to Rhaegar fathering Ashara's child, since I think the child had the trademark whitish blond hair, and purple eyes. I just think that it goes completely counter to what we know about Rhaegar and Ashara. I believe that Ashara was raped (dishonored) at Harrenhal by the more mad by the moment king. And, that she looked for justice from the strongest house in the kindoms, the Starks.

Oh, well, I don't think that having a flirt is so terrible. giving the moral standard of the series. Honestlly, I don't think it enough to discard the whole thing.

More honestly, the real flaw is that nothing tangible confirms it, either, just hints.

Honestly again, I don't find any clues of Aerys raping Ashara. He was mad, but I don't imagine him haunting A around Harrenhal. It's much easier R finding her at home once a day, or more.

[finger]

You have failed to set up a motive other than Rhaegar wanted to fuck Ashara because they were around each other in the Red Keep and because he was bored with Elia. As for what is reasonable to assume about the character, this contradicts what we know about Rhaegar through the testimony of Ned, Barristan's multiple descriptions of him as a melancholy, serious, insular man. There are no other hints, clues or instances that would indicate that Rheagar is the type of man to take on additional sexual partners causally. This isn't his MO, which is one of the reasons why his involvement with Lyanna is so shocking.

Well, hats off for your partner. (just kiddi')

I find it a good reason, given the moral standard of the series. I want to be clear, there's no proof.

Btw, is there any proof of anyone being the parent? I must have missed this part.

[MtnLion]

Aerys took liberties at the bedding of Joanna, after expressing an unhappiness with not having the lord's rights.

ETA: Aerys is a known rapist, witness Rhaella.

[finger]

Exactly, both Ned's account and Barristan's don't seem to mention he was sleeping around. Barristan was a lot closer to Rhaegar than Ned - nothing. And with Barristan's major points being celibacy and having a major crush on Ashara, he should have at least mentioned that there was some suspicion or rumours, whether he believes them or not. At least one mention.

That's a good point. Barristan could know the father's identity.

Otoh, should R-A have had, more or less, occassional sex, they needed not tell. "Perhaps" they didn't want Elia to know.

I hope I don't have to explain "secret romance"