Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Black Crow

R+L=J v.46

Recommended Posts

It seems to be a very common thing for everyone who references Barristan's lines to change "looked" to "turned". The line as written has legal connotations, looking for justice. The use of the single reference "Stark" implies house Stark, instead of a single person. I am wondering if Barristan thought that as a Kingsguard he could have offered a better chance at justice than House Stark could.

If it was indeed rape by Aerys she could have looked to Brandon Stark or if she looked to house Stark in general Brandon was likely made aware of what happened at some point either at the TOH or shortly after. This could also explain why Brandon jumped the gun and went absolutely ape shit when he found out Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and might have assumed Rhaegar intended to rape Lyanna, considering that Brandon knew that Rhaegar's father Aerys raped Ashara at the TOH.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, good for you, and good luck! :)

I never try to be insincere in praise, but my great Granfather used to say that it took as much energy to tell people what their doing right, as to tell them what their doing wrong, so I try and practice the praise.

Look forward to your updates. :cheers:

Thank you :) I'll get to work on them as soon as I can :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to be a very common thing for everyone who references Barristan's lines to change "looked" to "turned". The line as written has legal connotations, looking for justice. The use of the single reference "Stark" implies house Stark, instead of a single person. I am wondering if Barristan thought that as a Kingsguard he could have offered a better chance at justice than House Stark could.

Wish I could do one of those lightbulb faces from my phone..,

Now I see what you're saying! By removing the huge debate over which Stark, things begin to seem more clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it was indeed rape by Aerys she could have looked to Brandon Stark or if she looked to house Stark in general Brandon was likely made aware of what happened at some point either at the TOH or shortly after. This could also explain why Brandon jumped the gun and went absolutely ape shit when he found out Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and might have assumed Rhaegar intended to rape Lyanna, considering that Brandon knew that Rhaegar's father Aerys raped Ashara at the TOH.

This is quite true. Although I'm not quite ready to give up my Littlefinger was involved in the message about Lyanna theory. I suppose they're not mutually exclusive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is quite true. Although I'm not quite ready to give up my Littlefinger was involved in the message about Lyanna theory. I suppose they're not mutually exclusive.

Agreed infact, Littlefinger could have simply added fuel to the fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it was indeed rape by Aerys she could have looked to Brandon Stark or if she looked to house Stark in general Brandon was likely made aware of what happened at some point either at the TOH or shortly after. This could also explain why Brandon jumped the gun and went absolutely ape shit when he found out Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and might have assumed Rhaegar intended to rape Lyanna, considering that Brandon knew that Rhaegar's father Aerys raped Ashara at the TOH.

And your points linked to Mtn.Lions would also make sense why Brandon went off in a panic, because thats the way it always read to me. I know some people have alluded that he was angry, and it was about the honor of his House, but I always felt that he was thinking the worst and was scared for her.

To Lady Gwynhyfvars point, I think it's also possible that LF indulged in some misinformation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blaming Littlefinger for every major and minor thing is starting to be like the "Varys knows everything" paranoia, but saying it doesn't seem likely would be simply lying ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blaming Littlefinger for every major and minor thing is starting to be like the "Varys knows everything" paranoia, but saying it doesn't seem likely would be simply lying ;)

Ya it does seem that way doesn't it? While we're on the subject of Varys and Littlefinger how ironic is it that they attribute Ned's death to his inability or rather unwillingness to "play the game". Yet if R+L=J is ndeed true then it could be argued that Ned had been playing the game better than them for years, even in death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am wondering if Barristan thought that as a Kingsguard he could have offered a better chance at justice than House Stark could.

After our exchange about this off-thread, I agree with this notion of providing justice for Ashara. It makes the most sense in terms of Barristan's KG vows of celibacy. Perhaps Barristan, knowing that he couldn't compete romantically for Ashara's heart, viewed this lost chance to help Ashara as the only way a man in his position could express his affection.

But I wonder, as a KG, how could he have avenged her if indeed she was harmed by member of the royal house?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Littlefinger is the Loki character. I've also compared him to the butterfly in chaos theory, only conscious. He flaps his wings just to see what will happen. He has a certain level of knowledge, and plays the game well, but by his own admission thrives on chaos and I don't think is too troubled when his plans don't go as planned, as long they have some impact. The ultimate narcissist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ultimate narcissist.

This ties into him being profoundly insecure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, no bashing of Petyr! The one who rules chaos is the strongest!

In all seriousness, yes, that's exactly what he is. I mean the things you said. I love him nonetheless, I can honestly say that that's maybe one of the best characters ever developed IMO. Anyway, a chance to do this to Brandon and put fuel to the fire is just too good for him to miss. I mean, that's what he does. Bears shit in the woods, Petyr mocks those who harmed him in the cruelest way possible.

Everyone bashes him about being a pitch black character. I think he is just a big child. He can't grow up in the sense that in the adult world how big you are and who your mommy and daddy are, are not the most important things. He is just compensating fot then in a cruel way. You know, like the fat kid who became an athlete and can't stop posting pictures of his abbs on facebook. Except he plays with people and has no limits to his immorality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is worth bringing to this thread:

I added that wolves will bare their teeth as a greeting, which is only common knowledge with wolf trainers. And, I invited J Stargaryen to incorporate this into the Rosetta thread.

I don't think it really belongs in that thread, because the focus there is on the blue winter roses. That said, it's a brilliant analysis. I knew something was going on in this scene, and had an idea about some of the imagery, but I wasn't able to piece it all together. Great work by FrozenFire3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, no bashing of Petyr! The one who rules chaos is the strongest!

In all seriousness, yes, that's exactly what he is. I mean the things you said. I love him nonetheless, I can honestly say that that's maybe one of the best characters ever developed IMO. Anyway, a chance to do this to Brandon and put fuel to the fire is just too good for him to miss. I mean, that's what he does. Bears shit in the woods, Petyr mocks those who harmed him in the cruelest way possible.

Everyone bashes him about being a pitch black character. I think he is just a big child. He can't grow up in the sense that in the adult world how big you are and who your mommy and daddy are, are not the most important things. He is just compensating fot then in a cruel way. You know, like the fat kid who became an athlete and can't stop posting pictures of his abbs on facebook. Except he plays with people and has no limits to his immorality.

Yes. A "profoundly insecure" big child. I think he's perfectly brilliant :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I don't disagree with that either.

I think if the dishonor was actual rape, it was Aerys, but if it was a seduction with no future, then I think it was Brandon. And thats not to say he may not have fallen for Ashara, (I don't want to be too unfair until we get more info. on Brandon), but he wouldn't be able to break a betrothal.

So, I'll "waver" with you.. :laugh:

Doesn't Barristan think that Ashara killed herself because she was grieving for her child and the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhall? This doesn't sound like a memory of a rapist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well now that I'm sober, good one Alia. Lol.

As long as it isn't scotch, :stillsick: lol, and thank you. :cool4:

Doesn't Barristan think that Ashara killed herself because she was grieving for her child and the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhall? This doesn't sound like a memory of a rapist.

I take it as you do, but within the context of the theory that she was truly dishonored in the sense of violation, I think that Aerys would be the best candidate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to be a very common thing for everyone who references Barristan's lines to change "looked" to "turned". The line as written has legal connotations, looking for justice. The use of the single reference "Stark" implies house Stark, instead of a single person. I am wondering if Barristan thought that as a Kingsguard he could have offered a better chance at justice than House Stark could.

This is kind of reaching, no? For this to work, there would have to be evidence that Ashara's rape by Aerys would be a motivator for the Starks to rebel, since in this scenario, they are dispensing justice. There is no evidence of this. (There's no evidence Aerys raped her, either, but I'm playing along). Also, why wouldn't he simply say "the Starks", if he was referring to the house and not an individual Stark? Lastly, what would Barristan, BARRISTAN, of all people, have possibly done to Aerys to bring justice for Ashara? What COULD he have done, given his vows? What WOULD be have done, given his penchants for unwavering loyalty to whomever happens to rule? He thought he could distribute justice to Aerys when the Starks couldn't, & yet he fought for this same king who BURNED the guys that, in this scenario, were supposed to bring the justice? This scenario is thin, my friend...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it really belongs in that thread, because the focus there is on the blue winter roses. That said, it's a brilliant analysis. I knew something was going on in this scene, and had an idea about some of the imagery, but I wasn't able to piece it all together. Great work by FrozenFire3.

Thank you all guys :grouphug:

I'm re-reading ASoIaF trying to apply the same method that guided my study of Dante's Divine Comedy. I.e. a full symbolic and allegorical analysis. Sometimes I come accross passages that have already been discussed (bear with me, I'm relatively new to the forum) sometimes the hunt is more fruitful ;) To be continued...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone direct me to BC's heresy threads on the Stark-Targaryen comparisons?

I seem to be having some trouble finding them.

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×