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R+L=J v.46

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Doesn't Barristan think that Ashara killed herself because she was grieving for her child and the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhall? This doesn't sound like a memory of a rapist.

This is my primary objection to Aerys. If search wasn't broken I'd link my exchange with Mtn Lion about it. I can't remember the crux of it :dunce:

@Maxpey-- I tried! Looking for Great Northern Conspiracy thread myself and went through 48 pages of threads and saw neither GNC nor Heresy. If anyone can find those links I will :bowdown:

I guess the main point of this post is "You know nothing (without search) Lady G" :wacko:

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No, no bashing of Petyr! The one who rules chaos is the strongest!

In all seriousness, yes, that's exactly what he is. I mean the things you said. I love him nonetheless, I can honestly say that that's maybe one of the best characters ever developed IMO. Anyway, a chance to do this to Brandon and put fuel to the fire is just too good for him to miss. I mean, that's what he does. Bears shit in the woods, Petyr mocks those who harmed him in the cruelest way possible.

Everyone bashes him about being a pitch black character. I think he is just a big child. He can't grow up in the sense that in the adult world how big you are and who your mommy and daddy are, are not the most important things. He is just compensating fot then in a cruel way. You know, like the fat kid who became an athlete and can't stop posting pictures of his abbs on facebook. Except he plays with people and has no limits to his immorality.

It reminds of a tale my dad use to tell about a man who went to the devil and blamed him for the worlds ills and the nature of man.

The devil told him that while he was active in the beginning of things, he's since been in retirement. :cool4:

This is kind of reaching, no? For this to work, there would have to be evidence that Ashara's rape by Aerys would be a motivator for the Starks to rebel, since in this scenario, they are dispensing justice. There is no evidence of this. (There's no evidence Aerys raped her, either, but I'm playing along). Also, why wouldn't he simply say "the Starks", if he was referring to the house and not an individual Stark? Lastly, what would Barristan, BARRISTAN, of all people, have possibly done to Aerys to bring justice for Ashara? What COULD he have done, given his vows? What WOULD be have done, given his penchants for unwavering loyalty to whomever happens to rule? He thought he could distribute justice to Aerys when the Starks couldn't, & yet he fought for this same king who BURNED the guys that, in this scenario, were supposed to bring the justice? This scenario is thin, my friend...

This reasoning I agree with, which makes me ultimately waver back to Brandon Stark.

As I've said before, we can't judge those times by our own standards. And in those times women didn't have "friendships" with men where they were each others confidants, so she wouldn't have just shared that kind of intimate, and inappropriate information with a Stark unless there was specific justification for her turning to Stark.

So, for Ashara to turn to Stark whether it was Rickard, Ned, or Lyanna it was because a common denominator was involved and for a specific reason.

There had to be someone that "Stark" could influence in order to get justice or reparations, and the only other persons they could influence would be another Stark.

The Starks couldn't influence Aerys ,or the Targaryens anymore than Barristan could, nor could they influence any other Family because for one thing, they've been isolated for so long in the North, the rest of Westeros probably looked at them, though a Paramount family, as much as outsiders as the Dornish.

Now, another thought is Robert. He is one outside the immediate family that either Brandon, Ned, or Rickard could influence, but, thats complicated as well, because I don't see Ned lying to Lyanna, his sister, to protect Robert because he accidently fell into someone else bed again.

Brandon might be more apt to kill him for betraying Lyanna and as like to to go to Rickard to break the betrothal for the continued insults, so I'm sticking with Brandon himself as the man who dishonored/seduced Ashara.

Becoming pregnant, she later may have beseeched Ned to give her House his name, because it wasn't just her dishonor, but her House's honor that was at stake as well.

It would explain Neds bitterness later in the one moment he spoke of Brandon and "it was all for him," because while he was talking about Cat, he may have also been indirectly talking about Ashara, if Brandon and Ashara were lovers.

And alot is made of the Dornish, but I'm willing to bet that what a bastard daughter of a highborn Dornish House, or the Princess of Dorne, her Brothers and Uncles can get away with, might be slightly different than what a highborn maid of Dorne of a proud House can get away with.

Royalty and bastardy does have it's privedges. Royalty because it will do what it wants, and a bastard has no great name attached.

Also, what she does as a married matron, or a widow is a different story, but as an unmarried Highborn Maid, the expectations for behavior, and certainaly her treatment remain high I think.

Edit: Maxpey and Lady Gwynhyfvar, I think your wanting "Heresy 50" if it's a discussion on the Stark "back story," which last nights episode spoke to one of them regarding Bran.

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This is my primary objection to Aerys. If search wasn't broken I'd link my exchange with Mtn Lion about it. I can't remember the crux of it :dunce:

@Maxpey-- I tried! Looking for Great Northern Conspiracy thread myself and went through 48 pages of threads and saw neither GNC nor Heresy. If anyone can find those links I will :bowdown:

I guess the main point of this post is "You know nothing (without search) Lady G" :wacko:

Is this what you are looking for?

Heresy 50:

http://asoiaf.wester...4200-heresy-50/

or

If so, then they are all in the A Dance With Dragons forum.

http://asoiaf.wester...e-with-dragons/

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Doesn't Barristan think that Ashara killed herself because she was grieving for her child and the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhall? This doesn't sound like a memory of a rapist.

Another way to read that sentence is that she was dishonored at Harrenhal causing her grief. Barristan does not seem omniscient, and may be guessing at Ashara's motives in any case.

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If it was indeed rape by Aerys she could have looked to Brandon Stark or if she looked to house Stark in general Brandon was likely made aware of what happened at some point either at the TOH or shortly after. This could also explain why Brandon jumped the gun and went absolutely ape shit when he found out Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and might have assumed Rhaegar intended to rape Lyanna, considering that Brandon knew that Rhaegar's father Aerys raped Ashara at the TOH.

She could have approached Lyanna, and thus all of the Stark family became aware of the situation. It is not so much who she approached, but why she approached them. I do like the thought of Brandon overreacting because of knowledge of inappropriate activities by the royal family at Harrenhal. Perhaps Brandon did not know who the rapist was, merely a member of the royal family, and he went off-tilt because the current action was with his sister, Lyanna.

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After our exchange about this off-thread, I agree with this notion of providing justice for Ashara. It makes the most sense in terms of Barristan's KG vows of celibacy. Perhaps Barristan, knowing that he couldn't compete romantically for Ashara's heart, viewed this lost chance to help Ashara as the only way a man in his position could express his affection.

But I wonder, as a KG, how could he have avenged her if indeed she was harmed by member of the royal house?

That is a question that I hope we get an answer to from Barristan, himself. He does have the opportunity to sacrifice himself for his love, if he is willing to go that far.

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This is kind of reaching, no?

There are not a lot of scenarios that make any sense, overall for what happened. GRRM has said he could write a complete novel based on only the events at Harrenhal, so we may never guess everything. But, let’s have a fair shot at this, yes?

For this to work, there would have to be evidence that Ashara's rape by Aerys would be a motivator for the Starks to rebel, since in this scenario, they are dispensing justice.

I don’t see that as important at all. It should be obvious that either Ashara’s plea was refused, or that Aerys had a “special” motive for wanting to get rid of House Stark.

There is no evidence of this. (There's no evidence Aerys raped her, either, but I'm playing along). Also, why wouldn't he simply say "the Starks", if he was referring to the house and not an individual Stark?

The use of the singular surname implies dealing with House Stark, proper.

Lastly, what would Barristan, BARRISTAN, of all people, have possibly done to Aerys to bring justice for Ashara?

He could have done what Jaime does, I suppose, but much sooner. I think we need to hear from Barristan what he would have done, but obviously he wasn’t going to break his celibacy for Ashara, he says so.

What COULD he have done, given his vows?

If he wants to keep them, nothing. But, we really need to hear from Barristan why he thinks that looking to him would be more productive than looking to House Stark.

What WOULD be have done, given his penchants for unwavering loyalty to whomever happens to rule?

Three times, the same question, and three times the same answer.

He thought he could distribute justice to Aerys when the Starks couldn't, & yet he fought for this same king who BURNED the guys that, in this scenario, were supposed to bring the justice?

Fourth time, remember where Barristan is, he is standing next to the king, with a sword at hand. Does Barristan say that he knows who raped Ashara? No. Is it possible that he does know, but like Ned conceals tha information from the reader? Yes.

This scenario is thin, my friend...

No more thin than Brandon raped Ashara. Nor more thin than Ned and Ashara had a fling. Nothing specific has been given us, and there is a strong possibility that Ashara’s child had Targaryen appearances.

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I wouldn't necessarily get too wrapped up in the notion that Ashara was actually raped. She may well have been willingly seduced which in Baristan's eyes would make her a fallen woman rather than a rape victim, having dishonoured her family by indulging in in "ante-nuptial fornication" * and bearing the child of that transgression out of wedlock.

* I very literally come from a very long line of bastards and this is one of my favourite descriptions from the parish registers :cool4:

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Hi guys! - First time poster here.

I have followed the forums for a while thought. I most say there are some really interesting theories out there!

I too am all aboard the R+L=J theory. The evidence is just too strong IMO. I haven't yet discovered good enough evidence to the contrary.

Does anyone have a complete list of arguments AGAINST the theory so we can gather em all up just like the beginning of the thread had most of the arguments for the theory?

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I wouldn't necessarily get too wrapped up in the notion that Ashara was actually raped. She may well have been willingly seduced which in Baristan's eyes would make her a fallen woman rather than a rape victim, having dishonoured her family by indulging in in "ante-nuptial fornication" * and bearing the child of that transgression out of wedlock.

* I very literally come from a very long line of bastards and this is one of my favourite descriptions from the parish registers :cool4:

Add to this that Barristan, at more than twice the age of Ashara et al, may have have had a decidedly "old-fashioned" or traditional viewpoint. That is, he most likely would have blamed the man for the dishonour even if Ashara's involvement were completely consensual.

I'm a self professed waverer though, I really see both sides to this :dunno:

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Hi guys! - First time poster here.

I have followed the forums for a while thought. I most say there are some really interesting theories out there!

I too am all aboard the R+L=J theory. The evidence is just too strong IMO. I haven't yet discovered good enough evidence to the contrary.

Does anyone have a complete list of arguments AGAINST the theory so we can gather em all up just like the beginning of the thread had most of the arguments for the theory?

Hi and welcome! :)

Someone else may weigh in with more ideas, but a good place to start for the arguments against is the FAQs at the beginning of the thread, which address the most common "objections"

With search currently disabled, finding actual threads on all those topics may be an unwieldy process.

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So, concerning that little test I mentioned the other day:

I let a friend, who has never read ASOIAF nor watched the show, and who therefore is completely unbiased as far as the Targs and the Prince Charming are concerned, read Ned's dream about ToJ. I supplied her with bakcground info on Who is Who, and finally asked her opinion on the points which are most often used as counterarguments to the presence of the KG signifying Jon's legitimacy:

the information relayed to the Kingsguard(?): is it new for them, or had they known?

If you mean wheather they seem to know about what has happened to the king and his family I would say they seem to know it. There is no trace of surprise in their answers.

- their mental state: do they seem inclined to commit a suicide fighting?

They do not seem desperate at all, but think it their duty to fight. And they seem prepared to do so. One could suppose they were expecting Ned to come. It looks to me as if they knew where to expect him.

- their vow: are they referring to the Kingsguard vow they took, or some other oath?

- their opinion of the royal dynasty: are they still loyal to it?

Why should they be referring to another oath?The Kingsguard vow in my opinion is the reason why they are at this place, and that means that they are still loyal.

Really, as I have said in another thread: a matter of reading comprehension.

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@Ygrain Yep, this pretty much confirms alternate meanings are based upon emotions vice comprehension. ;)

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I wouldn't necessarily get too wrapped up in the notion that Ashara was actually raped. She may well have been willingly seduced which in Baristan's eyes would make her a fallen woman rather than a rape victim, having dishonoured her family by indulging in in "ante-nuptial fornication" * and bearing the child of that transgression out of wedlock.

* I very literally come from a very long line of bastards and this is one of my favourite descriptions from the parish registers :cool4:

Well, now. If Ashara is seduced,a nd a willing participant in her dishonor, I see no reason for her look to anyone. The fact that she looks to someone and Barristan prefers that it had been him (even after reinforcing his vow of celibacy), is a very strong suggestion that Ashar was unwilling.

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Well, now. If Ashara is seduced,a nd a willing participant in her dishonor, I see no reason for her look to anyone. The fact that she looks to someone and Barristan prefers that it had been him (even after reinforcing his vow of celibacy), is a very strong suggestion that Ashar was unwilling.

This would largely depend on what "look to" is supposed to mean. Besides, is she is seduced by Brandon and only afterwards she learns that he is betrothed, her original consent plays no role.

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So, concerning that little test I mentioned the other day:

I let a friend, who has never read ASOIAF nor watched the show, and who therefore is completely unbiased as far as the Targs and the Prince Charming are concerned, read Ned's dream about ToJ. I supplied her with bakcground info on Who is Who, and finally asked her opinion on the points which are most often used as counterarguments to the presence of the KG signifying Jon's legitimacy:

the information relayed to the Kingsguard(?): is it new for them, or had they known?

If you mean wheather they seem to know about what has happened to the king and his family I would say they seem to know it. There is no trace of surprise in their answers.

- their mental state: do they seem inclined to commit a suicide fighting?

They do not seem desperate at all, but think it their duty to fight. And they seem prepared to do so. One could suppose they were expecting Ned to come. It looks to me as if they knew where to expect him.

- their vow: are they referring to the Kingsguard vow they took, or some other oath?

- their opinion of the royal dynasty: are they still loyal to it?

Why should they be referring to another oath?The Kingsguard vow in my opinion is the reason why they are at this place, and that means that they are still loyal.

Really, as I have said in another thread: a matter of reading comprehension.

Nicely done! I agree with Mtn Lion- this would seem to prove the effect emotional bias (wanting something to be true) has on comprehension

I propose that a new non-biased, expert witness be called upon to guest opinionate each week. ;)

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This would largely depend on what "look to" is supposed to mean. Besides, is she is seduced by Brandon and only afterwards she learns that he is betrothed, her original consent plays no role.

I don't think that she can withdraw consent, nor would a Dornish woman be excessively dishonored in such an arrangement. Examine the case of almost every "quote" of that line, it seems to be interpretted to be "turned" to thus giving an option for Brandon to be the Stark and offering comfort. However, Barristan wants her to look to him before looking to a Stark, and he has just reaffirmed his celibacy, so it can't be for comfort. It must be for justice.

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