R+L=J v.46

[MtnLion]

@corbon There is a good reason to discount Brandon, it never enters Ned's mind, ever.

[Ygrain]

@corbon There is a good reason to discount Brandon, it never enters Ned's mind, ever.

Eh, the whole R+L doesn't exactly enter Ned's mind, either.

Besides, you so sure? "Everything was always for Brandon" could apply to many more situations than those Ned explicitely mentions.

[Black Crow]

By king of winter do you mean king of the North? Because Bloodraven/Mormont's raven called Jon king in acok long before the RW happened so I don't really see how the raven could have just meant king of the North since Robb was stiil alive and thriving at that point. It seems more likely that Bloodraven was talking about Westeros as a whole, unless he saw a future vision of Robb's death or something.

Not necessarily. The Lords of Winterfell were once Kings of Winter and then in more recent times Kings in the North, which suggests that they may once have meant different things and over on the Heresy channel we reckon that's where Jon, as a son of Winterfell accepting the allegiance of the Free Folk may be heading. Without going too deep into the heresies its possible that the rule of the Kings of Winter extended beyond the Wall while the Kings in the North only ruled between the Wall and the Neck.

Either way, the point is that there are options and that even if R+L=J is true (as I'm happy to believe) it doesn't inevitably follow that Jon will one day sit on the Iron Throne.

[Ghost's Shadow]

There's a part of me that would rather not see him on the IT if it means playing the games the southerners do (if you don't fit in their plans toward power, they kill you). The North is his home, it would be sad if he had to leave it (unless the 'new' throne is in the North).

[Stann]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up as I haven't been over the other 45 threads, but has anyone thought it peculiar that a good chunk of this theory stems from a dream Ned has, and not a recollection?

I don't know about you, but I never dream of past events in perfect clarity with each event happening in my dream exactly as it occurred in reality. There are many characters dreaming throughout the books and not all of them are dreaming of past events. When it comes time to describe past events, it's typically a character thinking back and recalling it and/or relating it to another character.

So why a dream and not a simple recollection or reflection? Is there significance to that? And why have we (and I say we as I also buy into R+L=J) latched on to this as one of the compelling pieces of evidence when Ned could have coloured this dream in any manner of ways based on his subconcious?

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up as I haven't been over the other 45 threads, but has anyone thought it peculiar that a good chunk of this theory stems from a dream Ned has, and not a recollection?

Yes, it's been considered. It's obvious that certain sequences in the dream are just manipulations of the dream mind. Ned wasn't really riding with wraiths, black rose petals were filling the air, etc. Yet, when Ned wakes up, he continues to think on this dream, specifically the parts that were not 'dream quality'.

[Stann]

Yes, it's been considered. It's obvious that certain sequences in the dream are just manipulations of the dream mind. Ned wasn't really riding with wraiths, black rose petals were filling the air, etc. Yet, when Ned wakes up, he continues to think on this dream, specifically the parts that were not 'dream quality'.

Ah, fair enough. I'll have to go back and read the entire sequence. Thanks!

[MtnLion]

Eh, the whole R+L doesn't exactly enter Ned's mind, either.

Besides, you so sure? "Everything was always for Brandon" could apply to many more situations than those Ned explicitely mentions.

It does if you think about the blue winter rosetta stone thread. When Ned thinks of Jon it is a blue rose. He is denying that Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son exists, in his mind. He therefore takes blue winter roses to Lyanna as frequently as he can, because she was . . . fond of them. Jon is taken to the crypts as often as possible.

Brandon was raised to be the Lord of Winterfell, and all of that was intended to be for him. Does not mean that Ned was offended that his older brother took Ashara away from him, on the contrary, it seems that Ned holds his brother in high esteem. So, then you would have to insist that Ned did not know, but that seems unlikely, since he visited Ashara.

ETA: Oh, and DP, you might want to fix that, it was blue rose petals in the air, and black ones that fell from her hand.

[Dr. Pepper]

ETA: Oh, and DP, you might want to fix that, it was blue rose petals in the air, and black ones that fell from her hand.

Sure enough. And just to add, neither of those really happened. All part of the dream.

[MtnLion]

Sure enough. And just to add, neither of those really happened. All part of the dream.

Or what Ned thought of when something else happened. We don't know exactly what was part of a dream and what exactly was there. Visit the rosetta thread, we have a few ideas what was in the air, and what fell from Lyanna's hand.

[Uruk-Hello]

Or what Ned thought of when something else happened. We don't know exactly what was part of a dream and what exactly was there. Visit the rosetta thread, we have a few ideas what was in the air, and what fell from Lyanna's hand.

Death in the air, Jon leaving her hands?

[Nine of Spades]

When was she ever at Casterly Rock? This theory is 100% speculation and based off of no evidence whatsoever in the book to suggest this. So you're "challenge" isn't really a challenge as far as this thread's standards go because you're not basing it off any textual evidence therefore there's really no point in arguing with someone that is making everything up in their head and then trying to pass it as a legitimate theory. What you're doing is crackpot in it's crackiest form, it's a known fact that Ned had to sneak out of the vale to avoid loyalists still in the Vale as that was during the earliest stage of the rebellion, so do you really think Ned would risk bringing a pregnant Ashara with him? No nobleborn pregnant woman is going to be traveling all over Westeros as you're suggesting Ashara was doing. Anyone can say, "Oh well this theory works if this person was actually pretending to be this person blah blah blah." But where's you're proof?

You're trying so hard to create something out of nothing in order to disprove R+L=J to the point where now you're trying to say Ashara was pretending to be Wylla for the sake of creating you're own made up convenient situation where Ned could have impregnated Ashara in order to validate you're own theory, when the truth is we already eliminated the whole Wylla=the fisherman's daughter theory to begin with. It is never once stated in the books that the fisherman's daughter's name was Wylla and I provided the quote to prove it in the last thread R+L=J 44 maybe you should go back and read it. The whole Wylla being the fisherman's daughter is solely from fan speculation based off of some misunderstood interpretation of what GRRM might have meant in an interview about ppl's first names when in reality he was most likely talking about surnames, so some fans think Wylla's first name tells us she's not from Dorne. But the first name, which I already established at the end of thread 44 and the beginning of this thread does not guarantee where someone's from in Westeros in the slightest.

So you're whole Ashara being Wylla theory doesn't work at all because from what we know so far in the series, there's no one in the Vale that actually thinks the fisherman's daughter's name was Wylla to begin with. Edric Dayne believes Wylla is his wetnurse and the mother of Jon snow so obviously Edric knows a woman named Wylla. Wylla and the fisherman's daughter are two seperate ppl not the same person...If you're trying to disprove R+L=J then creating theories that are purely based off of you're own speculation is not the way to do it at all.

From the previous thread.

I said Casterly Rock, I meant King's Landing. Ashara as I recall was one of Elia of Dorne's maiden in waiting. That makes it very plausible she started at the time of Lyanna's dissapearance in King's Landing. The theory would operate she individually goes to the Vale to warn Ned, accompanies him a the start of his journey, then arranges for passage to return to Dorne, only becoming pregnant close to when the two departed.

Second, your timing on the pregnancy of Ashara would be wrong. The comment was Ned left a woman with a baby in her belly, not that she was pregnant, or noticeably so, at the time they parted. Specifically if safe passage to dorne took a while, and she was monitored, its entirely plausible that she started to show only after Ned left her. Given that Ned Stark showed up with an unknown woman, it is entirely plausible that that woman would have been monitored while she remained in the area, and so knowledge of her pregnancy could easily have post dated Ned's arrival. Furthermore, if neither had the means to pay for safe passage to Dorne, Ashara may have needed to find a way to send a message so that safe passage could have been arranged. Its entirely possible that safe passage could not have been arranged until the fall of King's Landing. Ship travel in this era would have been faster then overland travel, so she still would have beaten Ned to the far south.

Third, I was not referring to the fisherman's daughter as Wylla, i was referring to the person who Robert thought was Wylla. Its entirely plausible Ned would have lied to Robert about Ashara's identity to Robert, as he was, even then, a bit of a drunken lout. For Ashara's security should the rebellion fail, making sure Robert wasnt bragging how his friend was hooking up with Ashara Dayne in the veil is quite plausible and sensible. The fisherman's daughter and Robert's "Wylla" in this case would have been covers for the identity of the same person, Ashara Dayne.

Fourth your comments are under the assumption that Ashara is a shrinking violet. This theory would hinge around Ashara being far more like Lyanna or Arya then Sansa. Likely as not to do as she pleases and take care of herself.

Fifth, I am not offering this as "proof" of anything. I am offering a plausible timeline that would match N+A to the known events, and explain the 3 differing claims to Jon's mother as stemming from the chain of events. This is just a scenario that matches the chain of events as we know them.

[Steve Stark]

Frozenfire, I must admit that I am tripping out a little bit right now. I have been doing a third re-read of the series and am on book three, and around 11 at night two nights past I read the same chapter you pointed out and DID NOT notice this. How is this even possible?!

I am one of those people that came up with the R+L=J theory on my own (not quite to the extent that this forum came up with, mind you) but I picked up that Jon was not Ned's son. With some of the great finds found in this forum I was already a supporter of the theory, but now with this last bit you provided I am fully on board. Especially with the eeriness of having just read it before you pointed it out, which almost makes it feel like its prophecy or something.

I'm 100 percent sold on it. Absolute great find. You're the forum master of the month in my book.

[Jon Icefyre]

From the previous thread.

I said Casterly Rock, I meant King's Landing. Ashara as I recall was one of Elia of Dorne's maiden in waiting. That makes it very plausible she started at the time of Lyanna's dissapearance in King's Landing. The theory would operate she individually goes to the Vale to warn Ned, accompanies him a the start of his journey, then arranges for passage to return to Dorne, only becoming pregnant close to when the two departed.

Second, your timing on the pregnancy of Ashara would be wrong. The comment was Ned left a woman with a baby in her belly, not that she was pregnant, or noticeably so, at the time they parted. Specifically if safe passage to dorne took a while, and she was monitored, its entirely plausible that she started to show only after Ned left her. Given that Ned Stark showed up with an unknown woman, it is entirely plausible that that woman would have been monitored while she remained in the area, and so knowledge of her pregnancy could easily have post dated Ned's arrival. Furthermore, if neither had the means to pay for safe passage to Dorne, Ashara may have needed to find a way to send a message so that safe passage could have been arranged. Its entirely possible that safe passage could not have been arranged until the fall of King's Landing. Ship travel in this era would have been faster then overland travel, so she still would have beaten Ned to the far south.

Third, I was not referring to the fisherman's daughter as Wylla, i was referring to the person who Robert thought was Wylla. Its entirely plausible Ned would have lied to Robert about Ashara's identity to Robert, as he was, even then, a bit of a drunken lout. For Ashara's security should the rebellion fail, making sure Robert wasnt bragging how his friend was hooking up with Ashara Dayne in the veil is quite plausible and sensible. The fisherman's daughter and Robert's "Wylla" in this case would have been covers for the identity of the same person, Ashara Dayne.

Fourth your comments are under the assumption that Ashara is a shrinking violet. This theory would hinge around Ashara being far more like Lyanna or Arya then Sansa. Likely as not to do as she pleases and take care of herself.

Fifth, I am not offering this as "proof" of anything. I am offering a plausible timeline that would match N+A to the known events, and explain the 3 differing claims to Jon's mother as stemming from the chain of events. This is just a scenario that matches the chain of events as we know them.

Oh god I thought we were over this and as a thread had moved passed this utter nonsense. :bang: If you have no proof whatsoever to try to support you're theory then you're not really challenging anything thing other than yourself. You clearly have a very strange take on plausibility.

[J. Stargaryen]

Sure enough. And just to add, neither of those really happened. All part of the dream.

The black rose petals falling from her hand is something Ned recalls while he's in the crypts beneath Winterfell with Robert.

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

[Dr. Pepper]

The black rose petals falling from her hand is something Ned recalls while he's in the crypts beneath Winterfell with Robert.

I was talking about the rose petals in the sky. MtnLion was responding to a post I made where I said the wraiths and the black petals (which I was corrected, they were blue in the dream) flew through the sky.

[corbon]

Brandon was raised to be the Lord of Winterfell, and all of that was intended to be for him. Does not mean that Ned was offended that his older brother took Ashara away from him, on the contrary, it seems that Ned holds his brother in high esteem. So, then you would have to insist that Ned did not know, but that seems unlikely, since he visited Ashara.

There's no reason Ned would think of Brandon and Ashara - he wasn't involved. Ned never had Ashara at all, he was just shy, not particularly shy for her.

And no, he did not specifically visit Ashara. He visited the Dayne castle, to return the sword Dawn - presumably to Lord Dayne. Ashara was there of course.

This is all assuming this part of the theory of course. It all holds together and your objections fail. They are based on 'facts' which are not facts, but a different theory extrapolated from some minor data points.

[J. Stargaryen]

I was talking about the rose petals in the sky. MtnLion was responding to a post I made where I said the wraiths and the black petals (which I was corrected, they were blue in the dream) flew through the sky.

I see. From the post of his you quoted I thought "neither" was referring to the storm of [blue] rose petals and the dead and black rose petals.

[FrozenFire3]

Frozenfire, I must admit that I am tripping out a little bit right now. I have been doing a third re-read of the series and am on book three, and around 11 at night two nights past I read the same chapter you pointed out and DID NOT notice this. How is this even possible?!

I am one of those people that came up with the R+L=J theory on my own (not quite to the extent that this forum came up with, mind you) but I picked up that Jon was not Ned's son. With some of the great finds found in this forum I was already a supporter of the theory, but now with this last bit you provided I am fully on board. Especially with the eeriness of having just read it before you pointed it out, which almost makes it feel like its prophecy or something.

I'm 100 percent sold on it. Absolute great find. You're the forum master of the month in my book.

Thank you, really :blushing:

Not only for the - undeserved - compliments but for the timing. I made the mistake to get involved in another discussion and overall the level of the arguments (low) not to mention the level of rudeness (high) depressed me quite a bit. Ygrain brilliantly calls it 'hatefest'. For the first time I found myself deleting a reply before even posting it :stunned: The flow of nasty, snarky and plainly offensive remarks was such that I deemed my work of historical research, textual analysis and translation (English is not my mother tongue) to be utterly wasted. I wondered why keeping on reading a book if the distaste for certain key characters and/or the narrative choices of the author is so... overwhelming :dunno:

I told myself, just go back to your peaceful reading and lonely analytical challenges. Then I read your post and it reminded me that sometimes sharing thoughts can be fun ^_^

[dragontamer]

Add to that Mormont's Raven (aka Bloodraven, a known Targaryen supporter) calling Jon 'king' from early ACoK. But Jon can only be king if he's legitimate...

You speak of the same Targaryens who imprisoned him in the black cells and sent him to serve at the Wall for the rest of his life which ended with him turned into a tree?

It has been implied that he killed Baelor's sons in order to put Aerys I on the throne and rule through him, so I believe he actually supported himself. I think it would be a big mistake to put any faith in BL's words so soon or believe that he wants to help Maekar's descendants.