[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

[ckal]

I am not saying the fight was good, but it should be pretty damn obvious he is in manacles and they would make it much more difficult to fight.

At least we agree the fight was far below par. In ASOS it was gritty and intense. Here it was like some crappy stage play. And I understand that it should be obvious, but let's be honest, it really only is to us because we have read the books. Jaime is in fetters and is fighting an armored opponent while unarmoed, but he appears to be in near perfect condition and no mention is made of being starved, malnourished, weak, or imprisoned in a cell of his own shit for an extended period of time. Plus, the armor doesn't even come into play in the duel. Brienne just kicks his ass seemingly without any problems, especially at the end when she basically just shunned him aside when Locke was riding up.

[7V3N]

Great episode. I was afraid after the first episode of this season, but this one went very well. I, like all, really hated that scene where Cat talked about caring for Jon. Just not at all like her character. Also, Thoros did not seem at all like Thoros. TV!Thoros seems like he could be Bronn's brother. Also, the less Shae the better (but that was also my opinion in the books). Those are really my only complaints (though I never like scenes with Talisa).

I thought the North was done very well, and it is nice to see some Theon (though some tough scenes). I expect that the guy helping him escape is either Ramsey or a replacement for the girl that helps him in the book. Jaime Lannister is played out perfectly as always. The scene with Joff and Marg was great. It showed just how they're on such different levels of intelligence and how she could play to his liking so easily. Queen of Thorns was amazing. I love how she went on for like two minutes talking without being interrupted.

I can't wait to see Dany get her Unsullied!

[7V3N]

At least we agree the fight was far below par. In ASOS it was gritty and intense. Here it was like some crappy stage play. And I understand that it should be obvious, but let's be honest, it really only is to us because we have read the books. Jaime is in fetters and is fighting an armored opponent while unarmoed, but he appears to be in near perfect condition and no mention is made of being starved, malnourished, weak, or imprisoned in a cell of his own shit for an extended period of time. Plus, the armor doesn't even come into play in the duel. Brienne just kicks his ass seemingly without any problems, especially at the end when she basically just shunned him aside when Locke was riding up.

I thought it was pretty clear that Jaime just got exhausted. And I don't think it's too much to expect readers to figure it's because he's been a prisoner of war.

[ckal]

I think it makes sense to *try* to give their lead character a more interesting love interest than a ditzy whore. It makes for more compelling television.

Again, as I said in my previous quote, they're not always successful in making Shae a believable character.

I don't think it makes sense to put any extra emphasis on that character at all. She is not meant to be super interesting. Instead of wasting time on this character, I could make a list of other characters being robbed of precious screen time and character development.

[Yvonne Veronique]

Great episode. I was afraid after the first episode of this season, but this one went very well. I, like all, really hated that scene where Cat talked about caring for Jon. Just not at all like her character. Also, Thoros did not seem at all like Thoros. TV!Thoros seems like he could be Bronn's brother. Also, the less Shae the better (but that was also my opinion in the books). Those are really my only complaints (though I never like scenes with Talisa).

I thought the North was done very well, and it is nice to see some Theon (though some tough scenes). I expect that the guy helping him escape is either Ramsey or a replacement for the girl that helps him in the book. Jaime Lannister is played out perfectly as always. The scene with Joff and Marg was great. It showed just how they're on such different levels of intelligence and how she could play to his liking so easily. Queen of Thorns was amazing. I love how she went on for like two minutes talking without being interrupted.

I can't wait to see Dany get her Unsullied!

It's Ramsay, look up Iwan Rheon.

[StannisWins]

I don't think it makes sense to put any extra emphasis on that character at all. She is not meant to be super interesting. Instead of wasting time on this character, I could make a list of other characters being robbed of precious screen time and character development.

Remember though, she has a very big part to play down the road. So those super important scenes will likely have more impact with a more developed Shae.

[Pinkie Baelish]

First off, 7V3N, I love your avatar. Oscar Bluth FTW! And long live Arrested Westeros!

Was anyone else disappointed by Theon's torture? Vanessa Taylor wrote Garden of Bones, which contained two torture scenes that might be the most gutwrenching moments of the show so far. I'm assuming that this episode was just a warmup for what Theon will suffer later. But I had problems with the way the scene was shot. Not once did I feel disturbed while watching it. And I should feel disturbed. David Petrarca did a much better job than Minahan at filming torture, IMO

[DragonAge93]

I really really loved this episode. A lot of epic moments, and the cinematography looks beautiful, especially the introduction of the BwB. And Anguy's pretty beast. Love when they make minor characters memorable. And SANDOR CLEGANE!! Is it next Sunday already?

Oh, and I don't see the problem with the Cat/Jon story. She felt bad for him when he was sick, but after that, went back to typical Cat of hating Jon Snow. Cat has to be made more sympathetic, really. Who would care if she was killed at the RW if she was still the spiteful woman she was in the book?

[Sphinx The Riddle]

That was just awful.

then dont watch and stick to imagining the characters in your head. Give them credit for making a series.. ungrateful

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

First off, 7V3N, I love your avatar. Oscar Bluth FTW! And long live Arrested Westeros!

Was anyone else disappointed by Theon's torture? Vanessa Taylor wrote Garden of Bones, which contained two torture scenes that might be the most gutwrenching moments of the show so far. I'm assuming that this episode was just a warmup for what Theon will suffer later. But I had problems with the way the scene was shot. Not once did I feel disturbed while watching it. And I should feel disturbed. David Petrarca did a much better job than Minahan at filming torture, IMO

Oh I'm quite sure this was just a little teaser. Ramsey hasn't begun his work, the game has just started. But I think Alfie did a good job so far. He has a good terror-scream.

[Khal Pono]

First off, 7V3N, I love your avatar. Oscar Bluth FTW! And long live Arrested Westeros!

Was anyone else disappointed by Theon's torture? Vanessa Taylor wrote Garden of Bones, which contained two torture scenes that might be the most gutwrenching moments of the show so far. I'm assuming that this episode was just a warmup for what Theon will suffer later. But I had problems with the way the scene was shot. Not once did I feel disturbed while watching it. And I should feel disturbed. David Petrarca did a much better job than Minahan at filming torture, IMO

That first bit with the fingernails was pretty damned stomach-churning, I thought.

[Eponine]

I am not sure her attack of jealousy was supposed to be convincing. I think she was just playing with him. She is giving him a BJ 12 seconds later so...

I think the book character Shae just wouldn't fly on TV this day and age.

She's kind of just a ditzy whore who has affection for Tyrion but mostly just loves the jewels he buys her. It would be hard to swallow that someone as intelligent as the character Peter Dinklage plays would fall head-over-heels in love with a girl like that

Can't believe someone intelligent would fall for the kind of woman who thinks acting petty is acting playful.

I disagree that book character Shae wouldn't fly - if she were made to be someone who clearly made him think with his dick. The actress is an attractive enough woman (can't say I'd trade appearances with her though), but she doesn't really radiate sexuality. And IRL, there ARE women who radiate sexuality so that normally intelligent men lose their clear-headedness (and vice versa with men who make normally intelligent women act crazy). *Especially* men who are insecure about their bodies and want the illusion that a beautiful woman can't keep her hands off him. And look at how many powerful people make really stupid decisions regarding where they get sex. I think that it would work if Shae were the kind of woman where men lusted after her and women wished to look like her. The attempt to make it seems like she's someone Tyrion would actually be interested in as a person, I think takes away from the pure fantasy aspect for him - especially since the show hasn't made it seem that he's actually fallen in love with her.

[Chuck88]

First off, 7V3N, I love your avatar. Oscar Bluth FTW! And long live Arrested Westeros!

Was anyone else disappointed by Theon's torture? Vanessa Taylor wrote Garden of Bones, which contained two torture scenes that might be the most gutwrenching moments of the show so far. I'm assuming that this episode was just a warmup for what Theon will suffer later. But I had problems with the way the scene was shot. Not once did I feel disturbed while watching it. And I should feel disturbed. David Petrarca did a much better job than Minahan at filming torture, IMO

I actually cringed the whole scene. Maybe I'm just more squeemish :mellow:

I think they will really kick up the creepy factor when Ramsay is revealed for who he really is. Flaying and shit yo

[Israel]

Follow the book is not a solution. Follow what exactly? I agree that a line like "Get the fuck up Sam, if we falter they will catch us and we'll all be dead" would have served. I do think there should be more distinction about the difference between this march and any other.

what do you want them to do ? All they can do in the snow is walk in single file, as quietly as possible, to their destination period. Do you want to see them running ?, yelling? freaking out? Will that help them get to the wall?

[Newstar]

I don't think it makes sense to put any extra emphasis on that character at all. She is not meant to be super interesting. Instead of wasting time on this character, I could make a list of other characters being robbed of precious screen time and character development.

Remember though, she has a very big part to play down the road. So those super important scenes will likely have more impact with a more developed Shae.

Yes, the Shae/Sansa and Tyrion/Shae scenes do accomplish a fair bit: foreshadowing for Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, indicating that Sansa is refusing to confide even in Shae about the escape plan (leaving Littlefinger and Sansa as the only ones in the know about the escape plan right now), establishing Sansa as naive about men and about Littlefinger's intentions in particular, Shae warning Sansa about men only wanting one thing from a pretty girl paired with Tyrion describing Sansa as a "great beauty," Shae warning Tyrion about Littlefinger's interest in Sansa and Tyrion ignoring it (leaving Littlefinger as his blind spot), confirming Shae and Tyrion's solid relationship while also pointing to potential cracks (Shae's protectiveness of the "child" Sansa as well as Shae's jealousy about other women), etc. etc.

Seems kind of odd that Tyrion implied that Sansa will just waltz into a non-Lannister match with one of her "many suitors," as if she'll have the freedom to choose.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Newstar

[Khal Pono]

Can't believe someone intelligent would fall for the kind of woman who thinks acting petty is acting playful.

I disagree that book character Shae wouldn't fly - if she were made to be someone who clearly made him think with his dick. The actress is an attractive enough woman (can't say I'd trade appearances with her though), but she doesn't really radiate sexuality. And IRL, there ARE women who radiate sexuality so that normally intelligent men lose their clear-headedness (and vice versa with men who make normally intelligent women act crazy). *Especially* men who are insecure about their bodies and want the illusion that a beautiful woman can't keep her hands off him. And look at how many powerful people make really stupid decisions regarding where they get sex. I think that it would work if Shae were the kind of woman where men lusted after her and women wished to look like her. The attempt to make it seems like she's someone Tyrion would actually be interested in as a person, I think takes away from the pure fantasy aspect for him - especially since the show hasn't made it seem that he's actually fallen in love with her.

Some nice points you made.

I tend to think, though, that it would be tough to pull off the kind of temptress you describe in a way that does justice to Tyrion as a character.

[Minsc]

Cat has to be made more sympathetic, really. Who would care if she was killed at the RW if she was still the spiteful woman she was in the book?

*raises hand*

Quite a number of people I am guessing, as I assuming that not everyone expects a woman to love the living symbol of her husband's infidelity and don't see that as being overly spiteful.

[Éadaoin]

Oh, and I don't see the problem with the Cat/Jon story. She felt bad for him when he was sick, but after that, went back to typical Cat of hating Jon Snow. Cat has to be made more sympathetic, really. Who would care if she was killed at the RW if she was still the spiteful woman she was in the book?

LOL.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

what do you want them to do ? All they can do in the snow is walk in single file, as quietly as possible, to their destination period. Do you want to see them running ?, yelling? freaking out? Will that help them get to the wall?

Well that's my point. I actually don't have much of a problem with it. One line of dialogue would have helped but if you read my other responses I'm on your side :)

I see where the other poster is coming from in that it doesn't appear as though they're being hunted. Which I why I think if Mormont just told Sam or his new babysitter that if they stall they're going to get caught.

[wolverine]

At least we agree the fight was far below par. In ASOS it was gritty and intense. Here it was like some crappy stage play. And I understand that it should be obvious, but let's be honest, it really only is to us because we have read the books. Jaime is in fetters and is fighting an armored opponent while unarmoed, but he appears to be in near perfect condition and no mention is made of being starved, malnourished, weak, or imprisoned in a cell of his own shit for an extended period of time. Plus, the armor doesn't even come into play in the duel. Brienne just kicks his ass seemingly without any problems, especially at the end when she basically just shunned him aside when Locke was riding up.

They can still point this out in the future if they want. Something where someone, maybe even Brienne, is mocking him with the fact that she appeared to be rolfstomping him and he can respond with the fact that he had been starved and imprisoned for how long.