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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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3) What did you think of the treatment of homosexuality in the Joff-Margery scene (which was excellent, in my view)? Joff says he's considering punishing homosexuality by death, which seems a bit too on-the-nose and topical for me. On the other hand, GRRM never explicitly explores what the religious/moral position on homosexuality is in Westeros. Reading the books, I sort of get the idea that homosexuals are mocked (not unlike how Jaime mocks the late Renly in this episode) but not that they are considered abominations before the gods, the way those who commit incest are. It's interesting to think about.

I wasn't sure what to make of Joffrey's comments about homosexuality. Either it is a deviation from the books, because I agree with you that homosexuality is something that is snickered at in the books but it never seems like an abomination or anything of the sorts. There is also the explanation that it is just Joffrey being Joffrey. Clearly everyone knew about Renly and Loras and we never see anyone, besides Joffrey, make a comment about being a degenerate. It's always a joke like Jaimes "Iron Throne of cocks" or Littlefinger's "when will you have your friend?" So for my own personal canon, I think I'll just interpret it as Joffrey being himself.

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Hmmm... I think it's pretty clear where he is given that he he is strapped to a scary-looking device that looks EXACTLY like Roose Bolton's sigil, but perhaps I'm wrong

You're right but I think the writers are trying to make it confusing for show only watchers at the moment. Like you said they can figure out what's going on if they pay attention to those details and the fact that it was Roose who sent his bastard to Winterfell.

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bypassing the bloody mummers or saving them somehow? surely Bolton won't take Jaime's hand

Bolton won't.... but Locke might.

I think Rast is actually the one who is going to kill Mormont.

For sure, Chett was never in the show Rast is just his name replacement. Dolorous Edd getting some more lines I like it.

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I'm a bit disappointed in Sophie Turner. I don't know whether it was her, or the direction she was given, or what. Dianna Rigg and Natalie Dormer I thought both did incredible jobs in that scene, but Sophie seemed wooden and seemed like she was reciting lines. I'm mainly talking about the line where she is begging them not to cancel the wedding. That should be absolute terror and panic.

I feel like Sophie Turner is this way in all her scenes, quite frankly. I think just juxtaposed with Dormer and Rigg she really looked as wooden as she normally is.

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My friend and I said the said thing at the same time! "What is up with her acting?" She's usually pretty good, but that was disappointing.

I think she was great until halfway through when she starts to lie. But then the he's a monster line was well delivered. It was a bit up and down.

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I agree that the initial talk should be wooden (when she's talking about how great Joffrey is). And the talk about her father was good. It was after that where I felt it fell short. At that point she should have realized that since they know Joffrey is a monster that they'll cancel the wedding and now she'll have to marry him. Time to freak out.

Edited by Aegnor

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I feel like Sophie Turner is this way in all her scenes, quite frankly. I think just juxtaposed with Dormer and Rigg she really looked as wooden as she normally is.

that is just the character of Sansa in King's Landing. wooden, reserved, sure to choose her words wisely, trying to bury her emotions.

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Agree with this, I thought Sophie was perfect in that scene.

Me to, they nailed the fact that she is a bad liar, and everything else was great like always with Sophie. I think since last season she has done an amazing job, and she really pulled that scene off.

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I can't believe I forgot to mention how awful the Night's Watch scene was. Where is the sense of dread and horror that was present in Sam's chapters? Honestly, his scene was no more tense or scary than Arya and Jaime wandering around the Riverlands.

I'm so disappointed.

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I agree. For goodness sake, she prayed for Jon to die and then freaked out because it looked like he might and instead prayed for him to live. It wasn't about Jon, it was about her not wanting to be seen (by her gods) as an evil person. She made a bargain for his life and then failed to keep it. Just setting up her tremendous inner conflict over the loss of her children. It's no so overt in the books, but it's there.

Otherwise, I thought it was a decent episode. Slow in spots, but some great character intros. Theon scenes are going to be very painful.

And those who pegged the Jaime comment about Renly & the IT as the best of the hour were right on. Lmao.

There a difference between an alive an self aware Cat and the undead Cat. Even though Cat knew she was a bitch to Jon, she couldn't help her self. She's not one of the stories sociopaths until after her swim.

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Not true. She feels guilt when she thinks about him while climbing the Eyrie, and in general she feels awful about that entire period after Bran's fall.

There is one sentence when she meets Mya Stone and she is reminded of Ned's bastard because Stone is a bastard name. It is not about what she said to Jon Snow, it is about their relationship in general. It also starts out that she felt angry as well as guilty. I don't think that completely exonerates her for her actions.

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that is just the character of Sansa in King's Landing. wooden, reserved, sure to choose her words wisely, trying to bury her emotions.

I try to see it this way, that maybe it is not Sophie's acting but just how she has to act, always hiding her emotions but even when she gets the chance to show emotion -- she doesn't do it well. As this scene showed.

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I can't believe I forgot to mention how awful the Night's Watch scene was. Where is the sense of dread and horror that was present in Sam's chapters? Honestly, his scene was no more tense or scary than Arya and Jaime wandering around the Riverlands.

I'm so disappointed.

How would you change the scene to make it more horrific? Sam can barely talk or walk and the scene sets up the upcoming mutiny at the ever graceful Craster's.

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I can't believe I forgot to mention how awful the Night's Watch scene was. Where is the sense of dread and horror that was present in Sam's chapters? Honestly, his scene was no more tense or scary than Arya and Jaime wandering around the Riverlands.

I'm so disappointed.

I could not agree more, even if the Wights aren't still harrying them, just the battle alone should have scared the piss out of them, with everything they saw. But no its just a lovely stroll back to the Wall. No sense of impending doom, or present danger at all. It's like this has happened to them a score of times, so they just shrugged it off. Sam seems a bit terrified, but not as much as he should.

Makes zero sense.

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How would you change the scene to make it more horrific? Sam can barely talk or walk and the scene sets up the upcoming mutiny at the ever graceful Craster's.

I think part of the problem is that they film all those wilderness scenes as day time scenes. Despair is more easily conveyed at night.

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How would you change the scene to make it more horrific? Sam can barely talk or walk and the scene sets up the upcoming mutiny at the ever graceful Craster's.

I don't know??? Make it actually feel as if they're being hunted by the White Walkers?

GRRM did a perfect job of creating that sort of tone in the book. In contrast, the writing staff are doing an awful job with Sam's scenes. Surely the solution is obvious? Follow the book.

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Bolton won't.... but Locke might.

For sure, Chett was never in the show Rast is just his name replacement. Dolorous Edd getting some more lines I like it.

Was Edd played by the same actor? He looked super different but I couldn't tell if it was age, the aftereffects of the battle, or just a different actor.

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Thoros singing Rains??? What?

Tom O' Sevens (who's not in the show) sings "Castamere" in Storm of Swords. Of course, he sings it while it's raining, along with about 10 other rain-relating songs in the books, so the choice makes a bit more sense than it did in the show.

Maybe he just really likes the song and doesn't care that it's about his enemies.

Edited by Khal Pono

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I don't know??? Make it actually feel as if they're being hunted by the White Walkers?

GRRM did a perfect job of creating that sort of tone in the book. In contrast, the writing staff are doing an awful job with Sam's scenes. Surely the solution is obvious? Follow the book.

The issue here being that internal monologue is not possible and pages of specific ambient description is not going to be done justice on camera. I suppose they could have other characters looking petrified and shaken up but that wouldn't really be true to the books either.

And you didn't really offer a solution. When I have a problem with something it's usually because I know how it could be done better given the exact same circumstances.

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