[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

[Eponine]

My main complaint with this episode is something that I think will be more and more unavoidable as the series stretches out, and I don't "blame" D&D for doing it this way because I don't see any clear alternative, but it felt very choppy and without any continuity. And because of that, there wasn't much narrative tension. For example, I think it would have made a much bigger impact, and been much more relevant to the story, to show Robb and Cat putting aside their problems to mourn for Bran and Rickon. In fact, that could have been a centralizing theme - how so many of the characters now have misinformation or total lack of information about each other, and have to go on alone. If Cat should be shown regretting anything now, it should be (as I believe it was in the book) that she left Bran and Rickon in Winterfell and wasn't able to be with them when they were in trouble.

Nope, sorry, I do have a problem with Kikkeli's acting no matter what awards she might have won in the past. Her sudden attack of jealousy was completely unconvincing. And some of that is the writing - that she's been portrayed as this mature and experienced world traveler and suddenly she's throwing the kind of tantrum a middle school girl might upon hearing that her 12 year old boyfriend said another girl was pretty. But she didn't sell it at all.

On the plus side, the Queen of Thorns is spectacular - especially the line that her son is doing the same thing as his absentminded father, only on the back of a lion.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Eponine

[ckal]

Yes but you know its bad when fans can predict exactly what will happen a year before it happens. Come on.

I'm probably at least as frustrated with the show as you are at this point. After season 1 (which I found to be fantastic), it seems they have really lost their way.

[Ross2013]

Yes but you know its bad when fans can predict exactly what will happen a year before it happens. Come on.

how hard is it to predict what happens when you've read the book. there were two choices. lose the actor or use him this way.

thats like saying its bad when fans can predict who will die at the RW.

[Israel]

Half the country is starving and look at this one. Maybe he's the reason half the country is starving.

Hot Pie! hot Pie!

It took long enough but i loved The reveal of the Jojen and Meera. :) Summer meeting Jojen, hmmm. This connection with Bloodraven?

def, "oh its you ,ok"

[wolverine]

If you need to be told that someone being held captive in a dungeon for an extended period of time would make you physically weak and exhausted then the fault lies with you, not the writers. He's also chained and is able to fight for a good period of time before having essentially one hand and no stamina catches up to him.

This reminds me of the kind of ridiculousness you see in those Tower of Joy threads where people are honestly shocked that 7 warriors killed 3 elite warriors.

This is kind of what I thought. Do they also need to tell the show watchers that it is more difficult to fight in manacles against a superiorly armored foe as well?

I actually quite liked this episode, better than the first one. I don't really get the outcry about Catelyn, but I have never liked her anyway. The show has been much kinder to her than the books so far.

[Éadaoin]

She did porn before she became an actress, no joke.

Er... so?

The show has been much kinder to her than the books so far.

I feel the exact opposite.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Éadaoin

[ckal]

My main complaint with this episode is something that I think will be more and more unavoidable as the series stretches out, and I don't "blame" D&D for doing it this way because I don't see any clear alternative, but it felt very choppy and without any continuity. And because of that, there wasn't much narrative tension. For example, I think it would have made a much bigger impact, and been much more relevant to the story, to show Robb and Cat putting aside their problems to mourn for Bran and Rickon. In fact, that could have been a centralizing theme - how so many of the characters now have misinformation or total lack of information about each other, and have to go on alone. If Cat should be shown regretting anything now, it should be (as I believe it was in the book) that she left Bran and Rickon in Winterfell and wasn't able to be with them when they were in trouble.

Nope, sorry, I do have a problem with Kikkeli's acting no matter what awards she might have won in the past. Her sudden attack of jealousy was completely unconvincing. And some of that is the writing - that she's been portrayed as this mature and experienced world traveler and suddenly she's throwing the kind of tantrum a middle school girl might upon hearing that her 12 year old boyfriend said another girl was pretty. But she didn't sell it at all.

Whereas Cat and Robb heard about Bran and Rickon 'dying' in ACOK (season 2) in a heart throbbing fashion, DnD elect to wrongly hold this off til season 3 after Cat releases Jaime, and Cat/Rob STILL haven't 'heard' that Bran and Rickon are 'dead.' Just that they haven't 'had word' of them. Like wtf? So many missed opportunities for heart wrenching drama.

[wolverine]

My main complaint with this episode is something that I think will be more and more unavoidable as the series stretches out, and I don't "blame" D&D for doing it this way because I don't see any clear alternative, but it felt very choppy and without any continuity. And because of that, there wasn't much narrative tension. For example, I think it would have made a much bigger impact, and been much more relevant to the story, to show Robb and Cat putting aside their problems to mourn for Bran and Rickon. In fact, that could have been a centralizing theme - how so many of the characters now have misinformation or total lack of information about each other, and have to go on alone. If Cat should be shown regretting anything now, it should be (as I believe it was in the book) that she left Bran and Rickon in Winterfell and wasn't able to be with them when they were in trouble.

Nope, sorry, I do have a problem with Kikkeli's acting no matter what awards she might have won in the past. Her sudden attack of jealousy was completely unconvincing. And some of that is the writing - that she's been portrayed as this mature and experienced world traveler and suddenly she's throwing the kind of tantrum a middle school girl might upon hearing that her 12 year old boyfriend said another girl was pretty. But she didn't sell it at all.

On the plus side, the Queen of Thorns is spectacular - especially the line that her son is doing the same thing as his absentminded father, only on the back of a lion.

I am not sure her attack of jealousy was supposed to be convincing. I think she was just playing with him. She is giving him a BJ 12 seconds later so...

I would agree with the lack of drama, but having read the books I don't know how much drama there ever really is for me on the show.

Edited April 8, 2013 by wolverine

[Khal Pono]

I think the book character Shae just wouldn't fly on TV this day and age.

She's kind of just a ditzy whore who has affection for Tyrion but mostly just loves the jewels he buys her. It would be hard to swallow that someone as intelligent as the character Peter Dinklage plays would fall head-over-heels in love with a girl like that

D&D (and the actress, who is not bad, in my opinion) have tried to make her something more than that, making her feistier and more independent. They haven't always succeeded in making Shae a believable and well-rounded character, but I certainly don't fault them for trying.

I am not sure her attack of jealousy was supposed to be convincing. I think she was just playing with him. She is giving him a BJ 12 seconds later so...

I agree; she's just teasing him and giving him grief for checking out other women. She's not seriously mad.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Khal Pono

[Oakenfist]

Yes but you know its bad when fans can predict exactly what will happen a year before it happens. Come on.

Theon going through a fake escape is exactly what happens in the book. At least that's what we learn from Theon's thoughts in DWD, but the only difference is he already knew who Ramsay was at that point.

[ckal]

This is kind of what I thought. Do they also need to tell the show watchers that it is more difficult to fight in manacles against a superiorly armored foe as well?

I actually quite liked this episode, better than the first one. I don't really get the outcry about Catelyn, but I have never liked her anyway. The show has been much kinder to her than the books so far.

Talk to people who have not read the books and see what they think. I've talked to some who think Jaime just got his ass kicked. Whereas in the book he actually put up a good fight. And the fight was really lame to be honest.

[wolverine]

I am not saying the fight was good, but it should be pretty damn obvious he is in manacles and they are a big handicap.

Edited April 8, 2013 by wolverine

[ckal]

I think the book character Shae just wouldn't fly on TV this day and age.

She's kind of just a ditzy whore who has affection for Tyrion but mostly just loves the jewels he buys her. It would be hard to swallow that someone as intelligent as the character Peter Dinklage plays would fall head-over-heels in love with a girl like that

D&D (and the actress, who is not bad, in my opinion) have tried to make her something more than that, making her feistier and more independent. They haven't always succeeded in making Shae a believable and well-rounded character, but I certainly don't fault them for trying.

I agree; she's just teasing him and giving him grief for checking out other women. She's not seriously mad.

Shae is just some whore that Tyion has taken a special liking to! I just don't get it!!! I'm all for 'strong' women, but when it actually makes sense!

[StannisWins]

If you haven't read the books, but don't get that Jamie was manacled and exhausted from being kept prisoner for months which put him at a disadvantage, then you are kind of an idiot. It was completely obvious that Brienne had the upper-hand which Jamie realized after she slammed him into the wall.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

This is kind of what I thought. Do they also need to tell the show watchers that it is more difficult to fight in manacles against a superiorly armored foe as well?

I actually quite liked this episode, better than the first one. I don't really get the outcry about Catelyn, but I have never liked her anyway. The show has been much kinder to her than the books so far.

Apparently people want subtitles explaining everything rather than inferring details from simply paying attention or thinking about things.

Or maybe they want Jaime to go completely out of character and start whining about disadvantages out loud whilst in the middle of swordfighting.

[Kasrith]

def, "oh its you ,ok"

It's much more easier than that. Summer is now a part of Bran and vice versa, and there is a part of the dreamsighted dream that gave a familiar feeling to Jojen through Bran and their encounter. No Bloodraven needed to justify that scene

[wolverine]

Apparently people want subtitles explaining everything rather than inferring details from simply paying attention or thinking about things.

Or maybe they want Jaime to go completely out of character and start whining about disadvantages out loud whilst in the middle of swordfighting.

I know and in the next breath I will hear someone complain about the show not being subtle enough or treating the audience like idiots.

[Khal Pono]

Shae is just some whore that Tyion has taken a special liking to! I just don't get it!!! I'm all for 'strong' women, but when it actually makes sense!

I think it makes sense to *try* to give their lead character a more interesting love interest than a ditzy whore. It makes for more compelling television.

Again, as I said in my previous quote, they're not always successful in making Shae a believable character.

[Yvonne Veronique]

Apparently people want subtitles explaining everything rather than inferring details from simply paying attention or thinking about things.

Or maybe they want Jaime to go completely out of character and start whining about disadvantages out loud whilst in the middle of swordfighting.

Lmao, I can imagine Jaime screaming out profanities as he gets pounded.

If I'm not mistaken, Jaime was getting his ass handed to him towards the end of the fight in the books also. Didn't he start thinking to himself why he was sucking so bad?

[Oakenfist]

Talk to people who have not read the books and see what they think. I've talked to some who think Jaime just got his ass kicked. Whereas in the book he actually put up a good fight. And the fight was really lame to be honest.

Those are people who need to be spoon fed every little detail about a show.

If you haven't read the books, but don't get that Jamie was manacled and exhausted from being kept prisoner for months which put him at a disadvantage, then you are kind of an idiot. It was completely obvious that Brienne had the upper-hand which Jamie realized after she slammed him into the wall.

My thoughts exactly. If Jaime said "Aww, I've been in chains for months, no wonder you're getting the better of me..." That's just silly because its so blatantly obvious that he isn't in the best of shape. And it wasn't even a real fight since Brienne wasn't going for kill shots.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Oakenfist