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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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I have to say I was really bothered by the Jaime vs. Brienne scene. For one, I feel like it could have benefited from having mention of Jaime's deteriorated physical condition. Sure, he had chains on as well, but you don't get the idea looking at the actor that he's spent the last year in a dungeon. Jaime was kind enough to point out Brienne's disadvantage in having to hold back from killing him, and she could have easily responded saying he was in no condition to fight.

That aside, the fight itself was then incredibly one sided. Brienne effortlessly defends against him, throws in a few good blows and then just knocks him to the ground when the Bolton men show up. This is the last chance for us to see just what exactly it is Jaime is going to lose, but they waste the opportunity to try and make Brienne a badass when I feel like they've done that plenty with several other scenes.

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Jaime was perfect when he got the sword and jizzed his pants a little because it had been so long since he had steel in his hands. Then Brienne destroys him. That was very amusing.

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If it weren't for the books, I wouldn't bother to watch the show every week. It's not so good that I'd make any special attempt for it.

I had never heard of the books until I watched season 1. I thought the show was amazing as a totally ignorant observer. I read the books because the show captivated me and have since re-read them and fallen in love with ASOIAF. I now find myself bothered and nit picking the show as the books are so far beyond what television could do, but if you had never read the series your view might be different. On an island with no knowledge of the books the show is really freaking good.

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All I can say about this episode is I am gonna be one happy camper when Tyrion chokes out Shae.

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I think the main problem with the pacing on the show is this idea of "checking up on characters." I would much rather have blocks of actual plot than just checking in on bits of people walking for a few minutes...

There is nothing inherently checking up on characters, but every scene needs to efficient and have purpose. Ideally its moving both the plot forward and developing out the characters in interesting ways. It must do at least one of them. Too often, Thrones repeats itself. Remember Joffrey and the prostitutes from last year? It essentially repeated the notion that Joffrey is a sadist, which we saw only minutes before in a previous scene with Sansa, in the same episode! Morever, when they repeat themselves, they take along time to do it. Which just is frustrating when so much rich source material is missed.

I was thinking about why I never saw the same pacing issues with The Wire, which is far and away, the closest comparable to Game of Thrones on television (huge cast, complex character arcs, plots spanning multiple seasons, characters weaving in and out of the story, etc..). In a single episode I recently rewatched of the Wire, it contained about 50 scenes with an average length of about 90 seconds, the longest at just over 4 minutes. I think Game of Thrones typically has about half as many scenes with an average about twice the length of time. This isn't to say there is no room for a good long scene, but it has to be exceptionally well written and used sparingly.

The writing quality on this series is just a mixed bag. Sometimes they hit it out of the park, often times they don't.

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Oh, a few more moments I loved

- Theon's sobbing pleas as the "servant" leaves. It was really awful.

- "There is no story so good that a drink can't make it better."

- Also, re: Jaime. I thought they did a good job making him look skinny. Not Christian Bale starvation skinny, but the tunic made his shoulders look pretty wasted. If I had any criticism of the fight, maybe Jaime could have resorted to some tricks or something once he knew he was overpowered. But then again, Jaime might not know all that many dirty tricks since he was so talented. Which might make for interesting television later on when he starts to learn to fight again and to make up for his handicap he starts fighting dirty.

Edited by PhoenixFlame

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jaime would be severly atorpied how ever you spell it what happens to your muscles when your confined and dont use them also malenorished and lets not forget hands bond.

dont take me wrong brin is good but could she best a completely healthy two handed jaime?

i think not.

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The writing quality on this series is just a mixed bag. Sometimes they hit it out of the park, often times they don't.

No. The writing is fantastic and sometimes, very rarely, they get it wrong.

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No one's said much about the Orrell scene; perhaps it wasn't that memorable.

I thought it was a great introduction to this character--very creepy and unnerving, and McKenzie Crook played it well.

Scene was really cool I loved how ironic it was when Ygritte says "Youve never met a warg" and the camera just stays on Jon haha. Do we know why they used Orell over Varamyr? Varamyr Six Skins is just such a badass name

Edit: I love a lot of the small things... the leaves rustling in Bran's dream, the subtle hint of Jon's warg ability

Edited by Head of The Ned

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Do we know why they used Orell over Varamyr? Varamyr Six Skins is just such a badass name

I assume it's because Orrell is more closely associate with the eagle, whereas Varymyr has much more expensive-to-film animals like polar bears and shadowcats.

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No. The writing is fantastic and sometimes, very rarely, they get it wrong.

Lets agree to disagree then. Cause tonight the following wasn't IMHO:

1. Catelyn and Talisa

2. Karstark lamenting Robb's marriage to Talisa without any context

3. Shae with Tyrion - The character of Shae is just a hot mess, she is whatever the plot/dialouge needs her to be and not a real character with any real motivations. She wants to protect Sansa -- why? TV Shae is apparently street smart, but is willing to risk her to be Tyrion. Why exactly? She loves Tyrion - when did that happen? She also has a jealous streak -- why? the motivation to betray Tyrion I am guessing? But not that jealous, cause she gives him a blowjob anyways. Which sort of invalidates the jealousy angle... whatever, nevermind, hot mess!

4. The intro of the Brotherhood of Without Banners - shooting an arrow in the air to show what a bad ass I am - sigh

5. Two scenes with the Reeds, neither explaining why they are there other the obligatory, we are here for you, which is meaningless

6. The Wildlings and the Night's Watch - both scenes are far too long for the plot developments

Edited by pleonasm

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Ok, great episode with some small flaws, but nothing that would ruin the day. As a guy who think that adaptation should remain loyal to source material but to bring something fresh, I can say this episode made me thinking about my attitude towards it. All changes in this episode were somewhat great on one level and yet so problematic on another.

But, let me first focus on great things. Sansa and QOT scene was perfectly acted, Sophie and Dame Diana had done superb job in bringing one of the most memorable scenes of the series on the screen. Although I believe that TV Olenna should be a bit harsher in tone of her comments (something Maggie Smith, Hellen Mirren and Judi Dench are well known for), I am so in love with her looks and her portrayal. On acting part we also have to give a credit to Thomas Brodie-Sangster, man, he is perfect Jojen. Not the way I imagined him, but this was one I think is genuinly great. And lastly, the most controversial Michelle Fairley. As an actress she did a great job (I will discuss the scene later), and I have to say her pain made such impression on me.

And now, scene by scene. Emotional beginning was something I really enjoyed. Bran was so lovely in this episode that I have no words for it. Introduction of Jojen, and later Meera was done smoothly, although I blame writers for exclusion of the most impressive vows in Westeros. Now, focusing on KL, I have to admit all scenes are done brilliantly. From Cersei`s loss of control, to QOT and Sansa, all the way to classic Tyrion humor with a bit notch to book Tyrion, and Margaery forshadowing Purple wedding. Everything about KL storyarc in this episode was nicely done. And I appreciate the absence of naked whores. Theon`s storyarc is part of something bigger, and I can`t wait to see the hunt and its consequences. Orell scene was fine, but not too impressive, and as for NW, I have to say I am a bit disappointed on the use of `I forbid you to die` line so early. But, it wasn`t something too bad.

And now, let start with controversies. Stark camp storyarc. Catelyn is a mother, never forget that. And her role in both the books and the show is to be a loving mother who does everything in her power for her children. And perhaps mentioning Jon was a bad idea, and I hate that Catelyn became significantly less grey and more white, but in some way I love how her sorrow is overtaking her. And the line `I couldn`t love motherless child` as much as it is wrong, and as someone said character suicide, is one of the most heartbreaking moments, and Michelle pulled it with highest honors. The thing I am confused is those news from Winterfell and the fact that the scene, perhaps just like in the books, is toned down a bit.

Also, Arya`s story. Very deftly executed. Especially Sandor/Arya`s meeting. I would like to have seen Arya`s appeal to Harwin to recognize her, and her enjoyment when Sandor is hunted, but for obvious reasons they cut it and I understand it. I love Thoros, but it`s not book Thoros. This Thoros isn`t some ruggedly drunken man who partied with Robert. This Thoros is different, occasionally funny, especially concerning Hot Pie, but also crashed Arya`s confidence and showed her how powerless she is. In a way he taught her how much she has to learn.

For the end, this episode has a bit faster pace, but I like the new recipe. Concentrating on less arcs in one episode than stuffing it all in one. This episode wasn`t perfect, but it was one indeed great episode. And having watched these 2 episodes, I can tell we can expect much better season this year. The one in which changes will work for the show and its characters and not against it

Edited by Mladen

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All I can say about this episode is I am gonna be one happy camper when Tyrion chokes out Shae.

Will not happen, show character is completely different and possibly a merge with a more relevant one from the books. Dornish mayheps ;).

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Will not happen, show character is completely different and possibly a merge with a more relevant one from the books. Dornish mayheps ;).

If Tyrion doesn't kill Shae, I would start questioning whether to continue watching or not. Tyrion HAS TO kill Shae. He just has to.

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Is it just me or was this:

"Shall we have some Lemoncakes?"

"Lemoncakes are my favourite!"

"So we've been told"

One of the greatest bits of meta-referencing ever?

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2. Karstark lamenting Robb's marriage to Talisa without any context

There has been plenty of context, Karstark himself has voiced disapproval (in season 2):

RICKARD: And where is our King?

CATELYN: You know very well he’s gone to The Crag to negotiate a surrender.

RICKARD: He’s gone to The Crag, aye, but not to negotiate. He’s got that foreign bitch with him!

CATELYN: How dare you!

There's also Catelyn reprimanding Robb last season and reminding him that he is breaking his vow with the Frey's.

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One of the greatest bits of meta-referencing ever?

Almost as great as Gendry bitching to Arya about wasting her free kills when she could have called for Joffrey or Tywin's deaths.

Edited by Newstar

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After seeing 2 seasons and two episodes from season 3, I am 100% sure that ASOIAF series is definitely IMPOSSIBLE to be adapted on screen. The actors are excellent (at least most of them) but the show is a complete mess. What the crap is doing Theon in season 3? It is not revealed until book 5 (FIVE) that he is Reek (the one being tortured and kept captive by Ramsay). What was that pathetic scene with Jaime and Brienne? He is supposed to be the best at swordfight. Shae is not NICE and smart in the books!!!! She is a shallow whore!! Oh yeah, I wonder too how is Tyrion gonna kill this NICE Shae. For no reason, right?

I am disappointed. The books are a fantastic work. Didnt deserve being butchered like this.

Edited by JJB

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