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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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Also, I'm not sure what to make of this Catelyn confession about Jon Snow. I mean, where did that come from? I can't decide if that makes her character better or not.

To me that was a very nice addition. Many people disliked Catelyn for how she acted towards Jon and I think it sets her as more likable and more realistic when they show her as an honorable lady with good intentions, but that just can't win over her own emotions.

I like when characters show vulnerability. While some on the board tend to whine about stupidity as soon as people don't act in the optimal way to success I tend to find it cheesy and unrealistic when characters aren't portrayed with significant weaknesses.

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Why Anguy over Tom O'Sevens? Tom is a more important character and Anguy disappears. I could see if they made Anguy the singer of the group too but they gave that to Thoros.

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What I find weird about the Rickard Karstark scene is... I totally buy this dialog, but what did Robb say to it? I don't know, it's not normal for someone to be told he made a huge mistake getting married to someone, and have him just shrug about it. Seemed odd to me that we didn't at least get something.

I had no problem with that, because I think Robb's reaction to the statement may be conflicted - Robb is smart enough to know, objectively, that his marriage could damage his cause, even if he doesn't want to admit that. So he says nothing, because on one hand he wants his decision to be the right one, and it's still a decision that's seems right to him in his heart, but on the other hand, he probably knows he has no rational argument to present to Richard Karstark against what Karstark says.

It was quite a difference between Bran last year and Bran this year in looks and in his voice, but I don't think it'll be a problem. The events in the TV show do not need to be as compressed as they appear in the books. It doesn't need to be a story told across only three years -- it can (and will since they have aged a lot since the pilot) feel like much more time is passing. I, personally, would be much more upset if they sought to recast the roles.

Yeah, I think the biggest issue is going to be in terms of how you reconcile filming with the particular scenes, because you run into a problem where the actors will tend to age up between seasons, but the characters may age up within a season, based on the timeline. TBH, if anything, I think they could do a better job signifying passage of time, which is always a difficult thing to do in this form of media, especially when there are multiple plot threads (you can't just put a subtitle saying "3 months since we last saw this character" and then go onto the next scene with one saying "1 month before that but 5 months since we last saw this character).

Jumbled, unrelated thoughts:

1) Was anyone disappointed they didn't have the Dreadfort in the opening credits, given that a couple scenes from Episode 2 take place there? I wanted to see how they would render that terrible place. I liked the first glimpse of Ramsay Snow. He looks the part.

2) Ran quoted a critic who called one Catelyn's scenes in Episode 2 "character assassination". Was this referring to the scene where she admitted to praying for Jon Snow's death when he was a baby? I didn't mind that at all. She always hated Jon in the books--yet she has a conscience so her sin of praying for an innocent babe's death has always gnawed at her; I think it was more-or-less true to the books. Perhaps the assassination was something else, something I missed.

3) What did you think of the treatment of homosexuality in the Joff-Margery scene (which was excellent, in my view)? Joff says he's considering punishing homosexuality by death, which seems a bit too on-the-nose and topical for me. On the other hand, GRRM never explicitly explores what the religious/moral position on homosexuality is in Westeros. Reading the books, I sort of get the idea that homosexuals are mocked (not unlike how Jaime mocks the late Renly in this episode) but not that they are considered abominations before the gods, the way those who commit incest are. It's interesting to think about.

1) Might come up sooner or later, if I recall correctly they don't always change the map the first episode a place appears in order to keep things slightly surprising? I could be wrong though.

2) I really have no problem with that scene. Look, TV!Cat is, and has been at least to some extent, different than Book!Cat, and I think we have to accept that to a certain extent. The question then becomes, is TV!Cat a good character irrespective of the comparison with the book - is she an objectively good character on her own. I wasn't sure about it before, but I actually think that the scene in question is a positive development, because now they're starting to make a clear statement as to who TV!Cat is. In any case, I think that TV!Cat still more-or-less follows the spirit of Book!Cat, and I think we're largely going to end up in the same places with most of these characters - I don't think minor tweaks to motivations and backgrounds really hurt anything. This is not to say that I don't think comparisons with the books are valid, because it's absolutely fine to compare differences, maybe discuss how things might have been adapted better, I just think it's a bit short-sighted to use the level of strict adherence to the books as a proxy for quality.

3) Explaning in rational terms anything Joffrey does is a futile exercise. Plus that scene does quite nicely in showing Joff's hypocrisy when you consider his own... proclivities. "Degenerate," eh? Nice choice of words there.

ahh but loras is no jaime.

And Jaime is no Barristan. Look, I've got all the respect in the world for Jaime's combat prowess, but I do think the fans tend to overstate it somewhat. He's among the best, to be sure, but he's not some unstoppable force, and factoring in that he wasn't at his best it's not all that surprising Brienne got the upper hand there (not to mention that Jaime started out pretty hot in that fight and Brienne basically let him wear himself out, which is certainly the proper strategy against someone who's been held captive for quite some time and probably lacks for endurance).

Edited by Warhawk137

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This episode was just alright. That's ok, still the best show on tv..

The best scenes were the Queen of Thorns, Arya & co meeting the Brotherhood, Orell & his eagle (creepy!), Jaime & Brienne, and the Reeds. I'm surprised that I enjoyed the Reeds because in the books I hated them.

Is Rickon really going to be raised by wolves?? If so, that's awful! Why not just have him stick with the gang until it's time for Stannis to find him and Osha??

The Cat and Talisa scene was awful. I usually never leave my tv when GoT is on but I found myself raiding the fridge for a snack during this scene. When I came back it was still on :/

Why have the Hound find Arya so early, considering this book will be roughly two seasons? And I really wanted to hear him say "Seven hells it's the little sister!" I don't know why I found that so funny in the book. "Why do you have a Stark bitch?" just wasn't that humorous to me.

Freaking SHAE.

No Varys. Was he this absent from the book too? I can't remember. I know he's definitely there towards the end.

I'm looking forward to the next episode with Dany buying her Unsullied, Theon being sent out only to be hunted back (I couldn't help but laugh at that part during the preview for the next episode), and Brienne and Jaime being courted to Harrenhal. Oh, and Lord Hoster's funeral. Good reason for Robb & his northmen to leave Lord Bolton in Harrenhal. And I guess during all those letters sent to Robb & Cat, none of them saw the farmer's boys' bodies?? No one heard of Bran & Rickon's "death", they're still just "missing"?

Oh and is it just me or does the show do a ton of foreshadowing... I mean like a LOT. There's no way that people who haven't read the books still don't know what's going to happen. With Margaery and Joffrey's "Could you kill something scene" and Lord Karstark telling Robb that he basically lost the war when he married Talisa. I know when I was reading the books, I was shocked that Robb married someone else but I honestly didn't think he would lose. Or die. The Red Wedding came as such a shock, and I feel that non-bookies are already preparing themselves for what's to come. I only hope that since GRRM told D&D the major points of the two unwritten books, that they won't feel it's necessary to add some foreshadowing for those too.

LAST THING, so you mean to tell me that Sibel Kikel, Oona Chaplin, and the girl who plays Ygritte get billing in the opening credits, but not Gwendoline Christie?? She's still just a guest??

...Hodor?

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So are all of Alfie Allen's scenes for the next two seasons just going to be him getting tortured? Because... rough.

Additionally, I'm very excited to see Noah Taylor as Locke/Vargo Hoat.

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Oh and is it just me or does the show do a ton of foreshadowing... I mean like a LOT. There's no way that people who haven't read the books still don't know what's going to happen. With Margaery and Joffrey's "Could you kill something scene" and Lord Karstark telling Robb that he basically lost the war when he married Talisa. I know when I was reading the books, I was shocked that Robb married someone else but I honestly didn't think he would lose. Or die. The Red Wedding came as such a shock, and I feel that non-bookies are already preparing themselves for what's to come. I only hope that since GRRM told D&D the major points of the two unwritten books, that they won't feel it's necessary to add some foreshadowing for those too.

Good Point, in the books I had almost forgotten that marrying Jeyne was a problem, because it had worked out for quite some time. I know I was completely shocked by the RW.

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Good Point, in the books I had almost forgotten that marrying Jeyne was a problem, because it had worked out for quite some time. I know I was completely shocked by the RW.

Easier to bring something seemingly out of nowhere then justify it with hindsight in a book than in a TV show. You do that in a TV show it'll throw people off, and at the very least you'll have to dump some exposition during/after the fact to get the viewers on board. Just a function of the medium, and how it's spread out over time - sometimes, TV needs to spend more time showing the Chekhov's Gun than books do.

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Shae's scenes are painful. Germany must have low acting standards if they're heaping awards on her.

Well depends on the actor, for example don't think Jaqen H'ghar was bad, he was also a german actor.

Well otherwise, we are guilty of Till Schweiger, so....

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I also liked the Joff Cersei scene. You can tell that Cersei has lost all control over him. The Joff Marg scene was fine. It sets up some good foreshadowing there about the purple wedding. Marg - "Would you like to watch me kill someone?" Joff - "yes". Well Joff, she's going to kill you he he.

Elba, can I say we think alike and please don`t offend or take it for bad. I mean only good. That scene really stood out and when I looked at them at that mirror all I could think is `PW, here we come`

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So are all of Alfie Allen's scenes for the next two seasons just going to be him getting tortured? Because... rough.

Additionally, I'm very excited to see Noah Taylor as Locke/Vargo Hoat.

I expect to see the Lady Hornwood plot, and maybe some Dreadfort/Manderly friction in season 4.

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Why was Thoros of Myr singing The Rains of Castamere?

It was an EXTREMELY lazy effort of incorporating Tom O' Sevens into another character. There are dozens of songs in the books, but all we get is Rains of Castamere over and over. Come on...

Also I cannot wait until Shae dies. She might be a terrific actress in her native German, but her cadence and speaking pattern in English are like nails on a chalkboard and her character's completely muddled constitution drives me insane.

Edited by Ser Farbod

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Is it just me or is the show looking more beautiful this season? The scenes in King's Landing stand out especially. The sets look more lived-in and layered, and the lighting and background ambience is great. The Sansa/Olenna/Margaery lunch had a stunning backdrop as well, with the vibrant gardens and the calm sea. Kind of irrelevant comment, just something I noticed though. Anyone else noticed it?

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It was an EXTREMELY lazy effort of incorporating Tom O' Sevens into another character. There are dozens of songs in the books, but all we get is Rains of Castamere over and over. Come on...

Also I cannot wait until Shae dies. She might be a terrific actress in her native German, but her cadence and speaking pattern in English are like nails on a chalkboard and her character's completely muddled constitution drives me insane.

I tend to agree with the theory other posters have presented. The show creators want the audience to recognize the song so when the RW comes along and they hear the music, it instantly resonates.

Besides, of all the complaints one could raise about the episode, the inclusion of Rains of Castamere seems trivial.

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Is it just me or is the show looking more beautiful this season? The scenes in King's Landing stand out especially. The sets look more lived-in and layered, and the lighting and background ambience is great. The Sansa/Olenna/Margaery lunch had a stunning backdrop as well, with the vibrant gardens and the calm sea. Kind of irrelevant comment, just something I noticed though. Anyone else noticed it?

Yeah, they've really seemed to have hit their stride in that respect, which you can especially see in how they've really developed their vision of what King's Landing should look like, especially by way of contrast between the various parts of the city.

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I tend to agree with the theory other posters have presented. The show creators want the audience to recognize the song so when the RW comes along and they hear the music, it instantly resonates.

Besides, of all the complaints one could raise about the episode, the inclusion of Rains of Castamere seems trivial.

Dont need to be bashed over the head with it. Just seemed extremely out of place. I cringed when I heard it.

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Got excited to see the eldest Stark brothers in the woods and heard Eddard's voice again, closest thing to a flashback.

yes, i loved seeing the boys together again just as they were a winterfell. sweet!

Was that supposed to be Bran hearing his father's voice through a weirwood grove?

while it was a greendream, i think it was also a set up for when he actually "hears" things from the weirwood trees.

I also liked the Joff Cersei scene. You can tell that Cersei has lost all control over him.

yes it was great and really sets up why cersei will be so careful to squash all signs of independence from tommen. made me sad for what is to come actually.

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The thing is, they could have done the same ending to 'A Man Without Honor'(the episode where Theon kills the kids), except tweak a couple of things. Catelyn frees Jaime, and either Jaime or Brienne ask her why she's doing it. Cat remains silent and walks away, clutching a letter from a raven.

Cut to Theon revealing the bodies, as the viewer realizes why she did what she did. And boom. You still have the same ending. All you need to do is add a few more lines. And you don't make Cat look stupid.

Exactly. I don't get why they've changed up the order of these events. I get that they may have wanted to speed up Jaime being freed, but then also speed up word getting out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths". It's more understandable that Cat freed Jaime after learning her last two boys are dead. In fact, most of the Northern bannermen are somewhat sympathetic to Cat, they dismiss her actions as "a woman's grief" and such. They are satisfied with Cat being semi-imprisoned at Riverrun. It's mostly just Karstark carrying on about his son and wanting his revenge on the Kingslayer.

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Exactly. I don't get why they've changed up the order of these events. I get that they may have wanted to speed up Jaime being freed, but then also speed up word getting out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths". It's more understandable that Cat freed Jaime after learning her last two boys are dead. In fact, most of the Northern bannermen are somewhat sympathetic to Cat, they dismiss her actions as "a woman's grief" and such. They are satisfied with Cat being semi-imprisoned at Riverrun. It's mostly just Karstark carrying on about his son and wanting his revenge on the Kingslayer.

I think we need to accept the fact that Cat has been completely assassinated on the show. Her entire character is a walking tragedy. Almost every scene is her having to mourn a new event. Every event in the books that actually develops her character (Riverrun) has been taken out or delayed to the point where we just get a truly miserable woman. The acting has been great. I cannot blame the actress at all. The writing however has been down right atrocious. TV Cat is an awful monotone shallow character that needed a ridiculous and completely made up story to give her any trace of intrigue. Pathetic.

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