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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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Absolutely loved this episode. Only thing I didn't like was that Tyrion and Shae went on far to long and would have been better if that time went into fleshing out Jojen or a bigger build up for revealing The Hound/Theon. Everything else was brilliant!

They are absolutely flying through ASOS Pt.1.

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Why is everyone ragging on the whole Catelyn speech about Jon? Most of you are feeling it's a big deviation from her feelings towards Jon in the books, but it's really not. She admitted she hated Jon in the beginning of his birth. She wished for him to die but then realized that's a little too messed up. She then retracted her wish of death, and Jon lived. She said she WANTED/WAS CONSIDERING to push Ned to legitimize him, but then changed her mind because she still clearly hates him. Also, this kind of works to demonstrate how hating Jon (who is just as much a Stark as his siblings IMO) for no apparent reason came back to cause her family harm. I saw nothing wrong with scene.

No, it is a deviation from her feelings on Jon in the books. She never wishes him dead, but certainly never stayed by his bedside when he had the pox, wishing for him to live for his own selfish reasons. Never once in her life did she had any desire to make him a legitimate Stark. The whole scene is just stupid and unnecessary, it doesn't add anything to Cat's character (in fact, it detracts) and is on the whole, entirely pointless.

Answer this: What was the benefit of this scene? What did it add that we didn't already know?

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Although i'm not a big fan of Jon's chapters or the north/wall/wildling storyline in the books, i felt that they completely dropped the ball here on the show. It's not really interesting at all, especially with Samwell and the night's watch, just a bunch of walking and marching in the snow. You'll probably get a steamy sex scene between Jon and Ygritte but that'll be the most interesting thing to come out of that. The northern storyline really doesn't get interesting to me until Mel and Stannis enter the picture, which will probably be a ways off.

The way they introduced the Reeds is laughable and kind of lazy, in the books the Stark and Reed children were friends/playmates and Jojen had talked to Bran frequently about his dreams/abilities. In the show, all of a sudden some weird kid randomly pops into Bran's dreams? "I've been searching for you" Okay, whatever. Bran's chapters are probably the least interesting to me in the books(next to Samwell) and it's going to be cringeworthy/amusing to see how they work around the actors age and apparent growth spurt.

As for the good parts, i like how they're handling the relationship between Margery and Joffrey and i think Brienne and Jaime's story is pretty well done, i liked their little fight at the end. Thoros and the BWB have been set up very well and i can't wait to see Dondarrion introduced along with his eventual clash with the Hound.

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No, it is a deviation from her feelings on Jon in the books. She never wishes him dead, but certainly never stayed by his bedside when he had the pox, wishing for him to live for his own selfish reasons. Never once in her life did she had any desire to make him a legitimate Stark. The whole scene is just stupid and unnecessary, it doesn't add anything to Cat's character (in fact, it detracts) and is on the whole, entirely pointless.

Answer this: What was the benefit of this scene? What did it add that we didn't already know?

It shows that Catelyn is a very conflicted character. Obviously, her strongest feelings stem from the thoughts of her children and Jon. It adds to her character in the fact that she is blaming herself for the destruction of her family based off of hate for Jon, when everyone else in the North treated him like a legitimate Stark child. In the books, she 100% hates Jon and wants nothing to do with him. In the show, it's more like she's 80& hateful of him. The conclusion is the same though; she was never able to accept Jon as a son of Eddard Stark and hates him regardless. In the show she just shows a tad bit more sympathy towards him but the hate is still clearly there.

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Who has Theon imprisoned. The Greyjoys or the Starks?

If you have to ask that you are posting on the wrong board, there are book spoilers all over.

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Who has Theon imprisoned. The Greyjoys or the Starks?

He is at the Dreadfort.

Edited by -Ghost-

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If you have to ask that you are posting on the wrong board, there are book spoilers all over.

Sorry I thought this was the Book spoiler thread on ep2.

That one is the only confusing thing abut last night ep. No one knows who's got him. His own men knocked him unconscious at Winterfell, and now we don't know what is going on other than Bolton's bastard hiding as a sweeping boy.

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Talisa......gag

yeah I'm not a fan of her but I still don't understand why they didn't have Rob marry Jeyne Westerling, I'm mean either way the betrothal to the Frey girl is totally f'd up now and it doesn't change the outcome for future events but this change never made sense to me, can someone explain it?

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The way they introduced the Reeds is laughable and kind of lazy, in the books the Stark and Reed children were friends/playmates and Jojen had talked to Bran frequently about his dreams/abilities. In the show, all of a sudden some weird kid randomly pops into Bran's dreams? "I've been searching for you" Okay, whatever. Bran's chapters are probably the least interesting to me in the books(next to Samwell) and it's going to be cringeworthy/amusing to see how they work around the actors age and apparent growth spurt.

I mean, are they really that acquainted with each other in the texts? Bran doesn't know who they are when they arrive at Winterfell. Maester Luwin has to tell him who the Reeds are and why they're so important. Sure, the show does plop them into the plotline pretty quickly, but I think it's a stretch to say they were "friends/playmates" in the books.

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It shows that Catelyn is a very conflicted character. Obviously, her strongest feelings stem from the thoughts of her children and Jon. It adds to her character in the fact that she is blaming herself for the destruction of her family based off of hate for Jon, when everyone else in the North treated him like a legitimate Stark child. In the books, she 100% hates Jon and wants nothing to do with him. In the show, it's more like she's 80& hateful of him. The conclusion is the same though; she was never able to accept Jon as a son of Eddard Stark and hates him regardless. In the show she just shows a tad bit more sympathy towards him but the hate is still clearly there.

1) We already knew this

2) No it doesnt and it also isn't actually true.

3) What evidence of there is this? We know Sansa wouldn't call him her brother, he couldn't sit with the family at feasts, even his best friend Robb made it clear he wasn't a legitimate Stark. This is a totally false statement.

4) In the book she hates Jon for what he represents. In the show she tells him she wishes he was hurt instead of Bran and that she wished for him to die again as a young boy. It doesn't make her sympathetic at all. What does make her sympathetic in the books is how her love for Eddard and her family overshadows her opinion of who Jon is (a fine young man) because of what he represents and means to her and Eddard's relationship.

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I'm using the "It's my first time posting on this website" disclaimer. I don't know if anyone else noticed the conversation Mance had with Jon in the episode. I can't recall the words exactly but paraphrasing it he mentioned how all the wildling tribes are at each others' throats and they spoke SEVEN different languages and the only thing that kept them together was the fear of death (extinction). I don't remember a line such as this in the books so this maybe some kind of foreshadowing on the part of Weiss and Benioff with regards to Jon Snow leading what remains of the seven kingdoms in the final battle against the Others.

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I mean, are they really that acquainted with each other in the texts? Bran doesn't know who they are when they arrive at Winterfell. Maester Luwin has to tell him who the Reeds are and why they're so important. Sure, the show does plop them into the plotline pretty quickly, but I think it's a stretch to say they were "friends/playmates" in the books.

It's been almost a year since i've read through the books, but i remember Bran and Rickon being quite friendly with the Reeds along with the Frey children in winterfell.

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I'm using the "It's my first time posting on this website" disclaimer. I don't know if anyone else noticed the conversation Mance had with Jon in the episode. I can't recall the words exactly but paraphrasing it he mentioned how all the wildling tribes are at each others' throats and they spoke SEVEN different languages and the only thing that kept them together was the fear of death (extinction). I don't remember a line such as this in the books so this maybe some kind of foreshadowing on the part of Weiss and Benioff with regards to Jon Snow leading what remains of the seven kingdoms in the final battle against the Others.

To me it feels like a big deviation. In the book it made it seem like all the tribes north of the wall are banding together under Mance because of his leadership, charm, strength, and ability. In the show he seems rather drab and leading them only out of a last ditch effort to survive the white walkers. It gives them a completely different feel and has ruined Mance for the television audience.

Mance and Cat are the two most butchered characters on the show.

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It shows that Catelyn is a very conflicted character. Obviously, her strongest feelings stem from the thoughts of her children and Jon. It adds to her character in the fact that she is blaming herself for the destruction of her family based off of hate for Jon, when everyone else in the North treated him like a legitimate Stark child. In the books, she 100% hates Jon and wants nothing to do with him. In the show, it's more like she's 80& hateful of him. The conclusion is the same though; she was never able to accept Jon as a son of Eddard Stark and hates him regardless. In the show she just shows a tad bit more sympathy towards him but the hate is still clearly there.

Yep.

that's the point - other than a slight deviation for ONE NIGHT when she thought she had BROUGHT ABOUT HIS DEATH and felt guilty, it's the same thing.

It's funny how so many people aren't getting it.

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I don't remember a line such as this in the books so this maybe some kind of foreshadowing on the part of Weiss and Benioff with regards to Jon Snow leading what remains of the seven kingdoms in the final battle against the Others.

Welcome to the Board! I dunno, that's a long way off if it's foreshadowing, but anything is possible.

On last night's episode, I thought it was pretty good. Most of the first two episodes has been (IMO) cleaning up from the mess left of Season 2, episode 10, which I thought was just terrible (easily the worst in the series). They never did explain how Sam survived having a wight army see him only a few steps away, but mostly ignored that for Season 3. Dany's story also seems to be going better.

I liked the Brienne/Jaime fight. I thought it was reasonably tense, and while it might have been more fun to have them crashing through the forest and the stream, that would have been harder to shoot, and this was an understandable and acceptable scaling down of things. I have no problem with Jaime getting overpowered as he was, I actually found it somewhat ridiculous in the book that he was able to hold his own with Brienne as long as he did, given his disadvantages.

The Catelyn scene, people are really overstating the degree to which this changes her character. I personally can't get too worked up about it.

I am really loving Margery Tyrell in this show. Her expanded character is turning into the best change the show has made. The Sansa/Margery/QoT scene was excellent.

I agree with the Shae hate, her scenes are poor and really don't make any sense. Is she going to threaten Littlefinger if he makes a move on Sansa? Please. Littlefinger isn't going to be too impressed with her hidden knives.

But overall, I think that the first two episodes of Season 3 have worked. I hope that they don't dilute themselves too far, the episodes are already very jumpy. It is unfortunate that the show, while simplifying lots of things, is also expanding many secondary characters into main characters. Margery, Robb, Theon are all getting tons of screentime, when none had a POV in SoS. The result is that the show has to bounce around a LOT, and there's just no way to check in with every mainish character in a single episode anymore. They need to try and tighten things up however possible.

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To me it feels like a big deviation. In the book it made it seem like all the tribes north of the wall are banding together under Mance because of his leadership, charm, strength, and ability. In the show he seems rather drab and leading them only out of a last ditch effort to survive the white walkers. It gives them a completely different feel and has ruined Mance for the television audience.

Mance and Cat are the two most butchered characters on the show.

Yes I agree. What little we've seen of Mance so far in the show is very different from book Mance. But that statement by him on the show just seemed to me like the creators are setting up Jon Snow's arc.

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No, it is a deviation from her feelings on Jon in the books. She never wishes him dead, but certainly never stayed by his bedside when he had the pox, wishing for him to live for his own selfish reasons. Never once in her life did she had any desire to make him a legitimate Stark. The whole scene is just stupid and unnecessary, it doesn't add anything to Cat's character (in fact, it detracts) and is on the whole, entirely pointless.

Of course it adds something to Cat's character. Just read some non-reader reviews and you'll probably find a few that even whishes that this scene was in the last season so they could have had more sympathy for her when she released Jaime, because they felt that the scene put her in a new light (it for examples explains her scene with Jon for the first time). Adding more sympathy is also a pretty crucial thing to do to her in this season, for very obvious reasons to everyone reading a book spoiler thread. It might not add things that were in the book but that's a completely different thing. Your argument sounds like it's based in a deviation is stupid and unnecessary because it's a deviation. There's no other reason to say that it didn't add anything.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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There a difference between an alive an self aware Cat and the undead Cat. Even though Cat knew she was a bitch to Jon, she couldn't help her self. She's not one of the stories sociopaths until after her swim.

I was referring to live Cat blaming herself for not being able to protect her girls and Bran & Rickon. I think in show they are trying to project her mindset of grief and guilt. Having smoothed over her earlier interactions with Jon they now need to present that conflict in a different way. Possibly something they felt wouldn't be important to leave out and then had to backtrack on? It might explain why the scene was so jarring.

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