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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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I'm getting a bit worried that the world won't have it confirmed that Bran and Rickon are "dead", If The North thinks there is a likelihood they're still alive after the RW, it's gonna change everything.

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In the scene where Talisa is just about to kiss Robb she looks exactly like the banjo playing retard from "Deliverance" :eek:

You're really a jerk, and that's not funny. People say the vilest things about these actresses sometimes. Oona Chaplin is a beautiful woman and delightful person, which is entirely separate from people disapproving of the Talisa subplot.

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When was that? IIRC "It should've been you" wasn't in the show.

But this is about a character being interesting, not sympathetic. I can see the argument the scene makes cat more interesting, add depth to her character, etc. But more sympathetic - I don't see it.

That's true, I got mixed up with the book as I have that closer in mind due to a reread. She just shows a lot of scorn for Jon for reasons that aren't made very clear. So you're right in that this shows a harsher thought towards Jon at one point.

I disagree. I certainly feel for a person that does something bad but realizes it and feels bad about it. As I said, it invokes something very human and that's a good thing in order to connect emotionally. That's of course different for different people, as I said. Just as some feel strongly for Arya right away, while others think that she's a spoiled little child that gets to do whatever she wants and neglect her duties.

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The war is more on her than almost any other character and she did all this out of 'love for her children.' But she can't face that.

Jaime, Cersei, Littlefinger, and Lysa all disagree with that statement. Additionally, both Ned, Tywin, and Joffrey highly question it.

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Without (too much) further bitching over Jaime lacking any badass status with a sword in the TV Universe, one (major) other thing annoyed me about the fight-scene and the same (amongst others) annoyed me in the Ned-Jaime fight too. The moment where Brienne swings at Jaime and he ducks under and spins (which you wouldn't do, but if you did...) past, why on Earth wouldn't he cut out her legs and win the fight straight away? It happens just before Jaime says "a bit of a dilemma" or something like that.

Other than that, I liked the Bran storyline (think Rickon will leave a bit later on with Osha, makes more sense this way), liked THeon's scenes as a starter for that arc, liked the Tyrell scenes and Joff-Cersei, didn't like either Shae scene much. Liked Robb's acting today and Cat's acting though not particularly the writing of her scenes. Mance is badass but lacks a little figurative magic and soul. Jon was OK. The NW scene wasn't really pointful. I also loved the Brienne- Jaime banter. All they had to do was make it at least a little clear that Jaime was out of sorts, not just shit

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Actually, not so. She has done a lot of stupid things which have caused this war. The war is more on her than almost any other character and she did all this out of 'love for her children.' But she can't face that. Thousands are dying and many more thousands will die because of her impulsive decisions. It is easier for her to boil it all down to something simple like not loving Jon. I think this scene demonstrates how deluded Cat is about her role in the larger story. It also gives us a little insight into her interior battles re: Jon. People often think something relatively trivial they did is the cause for their tragedies when it was some other flaw which lead to the tragedy. This is because we can't see our true flaws most of the time. I do not think it makes sense to think she knows about Jon's true parentage. All of her other emotional conflicts don't make sense if that is the case. Ned kept the secret because too many lives were at stake had he not. Ned probably realized that Cat was as impulsive as we see her in the books when they were first married; therefore, he knew she couldn't be trusted to share the big secret.

Um, no. This is kind of insane, really. First off the only action that can realistically be laid at Catelyn's doing that helped cause the war was her kidnapping of Tyrion. The degree to which that was a true seminal moment versus an action that sped up the inevitable is debatable. Littlefinger was plotting to cause chaos in any case, and had already set the Starks and Lannisters at each others' throats via the killing of Jon Arryn and the letter sent to Catelyn. Cersei was already plotting against Robert. And Tywin Lannister's reaction to Tyrion's arrest, while possibly predictable, wasn't lawful. His son is accused of an assassination attempt, and so, quite naturally, he launches a fucking invasion of the Riverlands in response.

Jon's cover was strengthened by Cat's dislike of him.

This much I agree with. If R+L=J, Ned's cover story to protect Jon from Robert's wrath is quite flimsy, and only really held in place because nobody has bothered (in-universe) to ask the right questions. Catelyn's enmity lends credance to the story.

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The whole cat feeling sorry for herself was Bleh.

Jaimie and Brienne fight scene sucked. Loved that the hound and arya are taken at the sane time

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The idea of creating a 'street smart' prostitute that might have more in common with Tyrion isn't on the surface a bad idea, but Shae on the show is a complete cipher. Even after 13+ episodes, do we have any single idea what motivates this character. Why does she care about Sansa? Why is she constantly putting herself at risk (helping Sansa, continuing to see Tyrion, etc...)? If she loves Tyrion --- why? What was that out of the blue sudden bout of jealousy she had. Which she promptly forgot and then gave Tyrion a blowjob. What the hell? That isn't a character, a human being, its a body filling up space and making noise.

You say she has a connection to Tyrion, what is the connection?She felt bad for how he was treated as a kid? We need something, anything, to understand where she is coming from.

The character is horribly underwritten. If Shae isn't the one-note gold digger, give us a scene, a line of dialouge, something that hints at her motivations, aspirations, or feelings. Of couse, that will require some acting and the actress isn't helping matters at all in that regard.

Putting aside the Sansa stuff, isn't the fact that Shae is a cipher the reason Tyrion finds her so interesting? She is one of the few people (along with Varys most likely) that Tyrion can't see through. If he could, then she'd be just another whore. At some point before the end of the Shae/Tyrion plot I expect we'll get an idea what motivates her but for now, Tyrion is continually kept intrigued by actions and loyalty to him that he can't understand. The jealousy bout has a few angles, but is impossible to fully decipher at this point. First it could be sowing the seeds for the Tyrion/Shae falling out over Sansa. It could very well be Shae simply teasing Tyrion (which she has done before though not in that specific way). Or it could also be Shae keeping Tyrion off balance (which is one of the reason he is so fascinated by her).

The Sansa stuff I'd need to rewatch a couple S2 episodes to really interpret well though so I'm going to avoid getting into that for the moment (and it really is less important anyhow)

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Yep.

that's the point - other than a slight deviation for ONE NIGHT when she thought she had BROUGHT ABOUT HIS DEATH and felt guilty, it's the same thing.

It's funny how so many people aren't getting it.

This!

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I'm getting a bit worried that the world won't have it confirmed that Bran and Rickon are "dead", If The North thinks there is a likelihood they're still alive after the RW, it's gonna change everything.

I do beleive after not hearing about Arya for a while Catelyn assumed she had died, so the same could be said in this case.

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You're really a jerk, and that's not funny. People say the vilest things about these actresses sometimes. Oona Chaplin is a beautiful woman and delightful person, which is entirely separate from people disapproving of the Talisa subplot.

I dont get it either. I think Oona Chaplin is gorgeous. Its probably blinded me so much that I dont mind that character change at all.

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The Great,

The scenes with Joff were the best as always. Awesome one liners, his turn on over the thought of his girl killing something, the cross bow and the sweet shot he made.

Ned's voice, Brand, the Dire Wolves, and Roose Bolton.

All perfect.

Also, hate to say it but wow does the story flow without Danny. Makes a person wonder...

The Awful,

Mance. Sorry the casting is worlds apart where it needed to be here. This could be the worst casting of a major character in this series to date, Renly being the only one as bad. Huge mistake for such an important character.

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Well depends on the actor, for example don't think Jaqen H'ghar was bad, he was also a german actor.

Well otherwise, we are guilty of Till Schweiger, so....

Well she must not be able to act outside of her native tongue then. It almost seems like she's memorizing the lines but doesn't know enough english to understand them.

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I don't really get the change to Talisa from Jeyne unless since they've made Robb a "pov" character they didn't want to divert budget to show them meeting amidst the battle of the Crag. In the end I don't think it matters who Robb marries because at the end of the day he broke his vow to the Freys so his love interest's origins don't really matter much

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Well she must not be able to act outside of her native tongue then. It almost seems like she's memorizing the lines but doesn't know enough english to understand them.

Or maybe that's on purpose, because her character is not only a native English (or whatever you want to call the Westorisi language) speaker, but was brought over to be a prostitute on a slave ship? Guessing maybe they didn't have Rosetta Stone as part of Hooker 101 training?

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I don't really get the change to Talisa from Jeyne unless since they've made Robb a "pov" character they didn't want to divert budget to show them meeting amidst the battle of the Crag. In the end I don't think it matters who Robb marries because at the end of the day he broke his vow to the Freys so his love interest's origins don't really matter much

But like...what if Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish and has Robb's kid inside her? I guess that could still work if it was Talisa...it just seems all wrong. It's an odd change that really doesn't make much sense.

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I'm getting a bit worried that the world won't have it confirmed that Bran and Rickon are "dead", If The North thinks there is a likelihood they're still alive after the RW, it's gonna change everything.

Yes, I was a bit flummoxed by the show not confirming the death. Not sure why they left it open. Robb and Catelyn's arcs are such a mess. Sigh

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I wonder how

But like...what if Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish and has Robb's kid inside her? I guess that could still work if it was Talisa...it just seems all wrong. It's an odd change that really doesn't make much sense.

the one thing I'm wondering is how the rest of the world finds/found out.

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What I find weird about the Rickard Karstark scene is... I totally buy this dialog, but what did Robb say to it? I don't know, it's not normal for someone to be told he made a huge mistake getting married to someone, and have him just shrug about it. Seemed odd to me that we didn't at least get something.

That was my favourite scene in the episode. I thought it was very well acted & executed. And that line from Karstark - "You lost this war the day you married that woman" - along with the cut to Talisa sitting uncomfortably on the horse absent a reply from Robb, really delivered a punch, and implied, to me at least, that deep down Robb knows that Karstark is right, and that we should know it too.

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